Do you believe “Moshiach” is…
 
(a) A tasty Polish stew best served in the depths of winter.
(b) An irrelevant, archaic concept with no relevance to today’s world.
(c) A metaphor for an age of world peace and does not imply an actual person.
(d) Alive and breathing right now on Planet Earth and is doing his work.
(e) Has already lived and will return one day.
(f) Is not born yet and is not physically present on earth yet.
(g) Is best represented by the collective Jewish people and/or the State of Israel.
 
 

Their where 12 ways of serving G-d – each with its own customs and there was always regional variation of practical halachah (unless the majority of the sanhedrin ruled in one way).

In some ways Sefardim may be more “authentic” Jews culturally although genetic studies of Jews shows Ashkenazi Jews to me more authentic. Also you should note Palestinians are similar genetically to Jews as well!

I guess we will just have to find out.. Lets hope too many people are not too disappointed in the end and we become one happy family with our own peculiar and special ways.

Read today’s article: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3772928,00.html

I guess we create the Moshiah in our own image, using theological details to support us either way. While I agree with Simon that parts of Chabad have steered off “the path”, it is important to put their debate in the larger Messianic context.

I include only the first paragraphs.

Rabbi Ovadia: Messiah will rule Sephardic-style

During his weekly class, Shas spiritual leader addresses differences between Ashkenazis and Sephardis and rules that each community must follow its own traditions until the coming of the Messiah, when Ashkenazis will adopt Sephardic traditions. Rabbi also rules that he who sends his children to secular schools ineligible to blow shofar in synagogue

He prolifically makes jabs at Ashkenazis and their traditions, but now he is certain – the Messiah will follow Sephardic customs. During his weekly class on Saturday night, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef addressed the halacha for blowing the ram’s horn on the High Holidays, as well as the varying customs between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

The rabbi emphasized that each person must stick to the customs of his father’s house, but claimed that when the Messiah comes, everyone will follow the Sephardic customs.

This is not a forum for this debate and it need to be done in person otherwise nothing could be resolved. Email / forums don’t work for discussions like this where people’s beliefs are so fixed.

1) My debate is not whther Chabadniks belive the Rebbe is moshiach or not. That is personal and varied within Chabad with many not discussing it because it is irrelevant to the mission of a Chabadnik which is to bring Jews closer to Judaism and through that bring Moshiach. The Mivtza Moshiach is only one of many and can not negate the others by its effects.

2) you do not speak for Chabad and those that do officialy dispute what you argue.

3) Paying someone at that time is no proof that now it should be publicized especially with the negative results it has now at this time.

It’s amazing!

We’ve reached a point in the conversation that I have shown you in a quick answer that 5 (out of 13) “proofs” are blatantly false (and many others are not accurate) or are totally misinterpreted, and… you suddenly are not interested in continuing this discussion… does that show the strength of your opinion?…

If you would like to continue discussing this issue in private your most welcome.

Just to finish off with the answer from Adar 5752:
I clearly wrote in the letter that I agree that “there is no Chiyuv (obligation) to find who is Moshiach”.

But:
a) It is permitted and certainly not forbidden. (certainly not like in 5745, when the Rebbe yelled about it in public for 45 Min…)
b) Chabad Chassidim are not trying to find who is Moshiach, we know who he is.
c) You missed the point: The Rebbe is saying to continue PAY a person that IS PUBLICISING THAT HE IS MOSHIACH. Are you trying to ignore something?…

I am not going to continue to debate the issues with you. Someone need to sit down and go through each and every one of your sources and show you how you read into and misinterpret the Rebbe explicit words as well as ignore many of the others sichas. I have many more proofs after Adar 5752 showing that the Rebbe explicitly forbid this. He always said not to learn “hints” from the his words,

Here is my main point in your own words (and the Rebbe’s):

“The Rebbe answers: Yes, it is true that there is no obligation to publicize that a certain person is Moshiach”

There is a chiyov to spread avahas Yisroel, Torah and Chassidus and by your actions you distance frum Jews from Chassidus (= against the Baal Shem Tov, all the Rebbeim) and non-frum Jews like some of those in this forum from true Yiddishkeit (=against the Torah, G-d).

You have joined this conversation recently, and therefore you may have not noticed that above I wrote to Simon that when writing about a certain topic, he should try do some honest research. I will now point out to you a number of the examples that you bring which I have heard again and again from people and are blatantly false.

Iyar, 5751:

Gansburg case:
I don’t understand where you see the Rebbe rejecting the Moshiach identity issue, rather the Rebbe said as you quoted: “Don’t tell me what to do”. That’s it!

D. Nachshon case:
The story actually happened but however the Rebbe’s response is not true. The Rebbe at the time actually smiled and that is the reason why many people including the famed mashpia Rabbi Sholom Charitonov blessed Shehechiyanu.

The fact that the Rebbe came to Shachris late because of the above mentioned incident is false (and a rumor that till today Rabbi Groner says is not true) and I fail to understand how you can still claim this when the Rebbe himself disproved this rumor the same day by “Dollars” when the Rebbe said (in answer to a person who asked about this rumor): “I have no connection with rumors and that if I had to pay attention to every rumor I would not have time to learn and pray.”

In addition: Nachshon at that time wanted to leave NY to Israel because he thought that the Rebbe maybe displeased with his actions (there were so many rumors), so he asked the Rebbe and the Rebbe told him to stay!

Tishrei, 5752:

Again the answer is false. How do I know, Because Rabbi Yeruslavski himself wrote a letter around 10 years saying that the incident is false and actually never happened! (I have the letter and could send it to you upon request)

Letter from Adar I 5752:
Do you know who that letter was written to? Do you know under what circumstances? If this letter is so clear, why was it published only after Gimmel Tammuz? Why didn’t Rabbi Klein have the decency to let us know the Rebbe’s “true” opinion and thus spare much anguish in the years 5752-54, and in general?

You know why, because if you would know to whom the letter was written to and under what circumstances, then the whole meaning of the letter is the total opposite of what you are saying.

The letter was written to a Director of an organisation who wanted to fire an employee who was publicising that that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and wrote to the Rebbe saying: “There is no Chiyuv (obligation) to publicise that someone is Moshiach”.

The Rebbe answers: Yes, it is true that there is no obligation to publicise that a certain person is Moshiach (which even Meshichist’s agree with and is actually brought in Chassidic text that a king can’t be forced unto a nation rather the nation has to willingly sumbit themselves to the king), However, the Rebbe continues, there is an obligation of “loving you fellow Jew”, therefore keep him in the Mosad.

Basically the Rebbe is commanding the director to keep an employee that is publicising that the the Rebbe is Moshiach…

I the beginning a greater percentage of Lubavitchers did believe it but as time passed they realized they were wrong. Also over the years the feeling was let these people do that they want and they will come to their senses in time but now many of these Meshichistim have become increasingly fanatic and even violent or destructive leading Lubavitchers to come out much more forcefully against them even in a recent court case over who controls 770 in New York.

So the movement as a whole is stable, growing and following the Rebbe’s wishes. It is like have a wayward child in your family. The parents don’t disown them but try their best to rehabilitate them.

I really did not want to debate Noah but we can not let this shtus continue unabated.

Whether or not Chabad has lost its way as a movement and/or turned into a Messianic cult that is no longer consistent with some of the basic principles of Orthodox Judaism – my point is that for the vast majority of Lubavitchers this is not true.

David – Before 1992 the Rebbe had really complete control over the Chassidim in every detail. Only after the first stroke when the Rebbe could not speak did things start to disassemble to a certain extent (I have stories even after that the Rebbe tried to stop it) and then after 3 Tammuz it was Chaos. It took time for Chabad to reassemble an authority and leadership without a Rebbe openly present.

Your last words I fully agree with and that is what Chabad is but Spreading the teachings about Moshiach and the immediate redemption is a task set by the Rebbe in the last years which can not be ignored just not the notion of who Moshiach is.