When a Kiss Means Death
The uniform of a gay inmate of a Nazi concentration camp
By Mark Baker
In the centre of Berlin not far from the Brandenburg gates there is a memorial to the Holocaust made up of thousands of slab tombstones. The group of students I am guiding through Europe on a study tour of the Holocaust disperse inside this abstract cemetery, lost in the labyrinthine structure of stones and questions.
One of the questions leads us to an adjacent park where a solitary tombstone has been erected. It wasn’t there the last time I visited Berlin, in which an invisible city of memory has rapidly sprung up, of plaques, signposts and stumbling blocks that ambush you at every corner with a personalised story of terror.
The isolated tombstone on the margins of Eisenmann’s Denkmal has a window slit built into its surface. It lures you to look into the stone, like a voyeur at a peep show. The image that is projected into the void of the stone is unexpected. It is of two young men, locked in a passionate kiss in the park where we ourselves stand.
I ask one of the students in our group to read the inscription near the tombstone. His voice quivers as he reads about the laws that prohibited same sex contact. A kiss between two men was a ticket to Auschwitz. In another time, this student would have had two triangles stitched onto his uniform, a pink and a yellow one, both core elements of his identity today.
The story of the persecution and gassing of gays in Auschwitz is part of the Holocaust. Yet where it differs is that the legislation that allowed for gays to be incarcerated was not a Nazi law but based on a criminal code that extend back a century. Paragraph 175, which forbad homosexual contact, survived the murder of about 15,000 gays in Auschwitz. It remained on the statue books of Germany and other European countries, including many states in Australia, for decades after the genocidal actions against homosexuals.
When I was a student at the University of Melbourne in the late 70s, my teacher John Foster, who published his memoir before his death, faced the class at the end of a lecture on the persecution of homosexuals and with stern eyes challenged us: Is the world of Auschwitz totally disconnected from our own world?
I thought of my teacher and also my student when I learned that our new Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, is opposed to legalising same sex marriage. My reaction is perhaps inflationary given my current journey in the footsteps of the Holocaust but I would like to take her to that marginalised tombstone and ask her to peer inside the stone and face the questions it asks of us. Whether it is for electoral gain or a personal opinion, the message she is communicating to the Australian public says something about gays, their loves and their identities that carry on the remaining vestiges of Paragraph 175.
I would like to come away from this journey by teaching my students that to commemorate means to take the stones of our invisible cities and transfer them to our contemporary lives. Many of the monuments demonstrate the power of a single individual to redirect the seemingly inexorable path of history before it has been written. For this reason, we must speak out on behalf of those growing number of people who are privileged to live in a time when they, and their relationships, are no longer prohibited, yet suspicions about the sanctity of their love persist .The questions must be asked not only of the state, but of our own faith systems – our churches, synagogues and mosques. In my own Jewish religion, a respected Orthodox gay rabbi, Steven Greenberg, has written about how the prohibitive texts in Leviticus should be understood against the grain of its own historical context in which gay behaviour was associated with pagan worship. Today, our sexualised culture of homo- and hetero- sexuality has pagan elements, but the act of love between two people is nothing more than love. It is not for us to legislate on how these commitments should be expressed. Our religions and states would honour those who were murdered in Auschwitz by thinking about the ruptures and continuities between the past and present, and how our thoughts continue to incarcerate gays in a world of our own prejudices. It is time to eradicate the legacy of Paragraph 175, and to narrow the space that separates that solitary tombstone from all the others.
Mark Baker is Director of the Australian Centre for Jewish Civilisation at Monash University.
Thank you Mark.
[...] When a Kiss Means Death [...]
Thank you.
I was in Poland recently, it was extremely moving. The Holocaust is still very much with us, and the anti-Semites and homophobes need to be stopped in their tracks.
Your powerful words will surely help.
Thank you for this insight.
Such saykhel. Succinctly and sensitively written. Thank you so much.
A beautiful, sensitive and most eloquent statement. Thank you most sincerely.
I am against gay marriage but, that does not mean I would in any way supoort slaughtering people for being gay. One can see homsexuality as immoral yet, not be in any manner or form a proponent of persecution or genocide of gays. Persecuting or genociding any one group for any reason is horrifc and immoral too. I take umbrage with Mr. Baker’s implication (read between the lines) that those who do not want to see gay marriage legalised are inclined to be immoral persecutors or murderous beasts.
A very good piece Mark.
I’m only trying to understand one sentence: “The questions must be asked not only of the state, but of our own faith systems – our churches, synagogues and mosques.”
Are the “questions” to do with marriage or tolerance and understanding?
If it’s to do with marriage, then this is problematic.
If we have separation of church and state, then one shouldn’t be able to regulate the other (lobbying is different from regulating). The state can legislate for gay civil unions and the faiths can equally refuse to conduct gay weddings. But the state cannot tell the faiths that they MUST conduct them.
Seeing as we are on a Jewish website, we can ask what difference it makes to Judaism if gays are having civil weddings?
I would like to share the following quotation taken from the book “Why v Why: Gay marriage“, co-authored by Rodney Croome (and reproduced with permission):
This quote was a submission to the Senate for the “Inquiry into the Marriage Equality Amendment Bill 2009“. It first came to my attention at a presentation given by Rodney Croome at the Wheeler Centre on Thursday July 8 2010. The video of this presentation is available online here. Listen to it in its entirety. It is highly relevant to this discussion.
Michael.
The Rebbe’s view of homosexuality explained here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTloVbGitcg
The anguish felt by homosexuals must be immense. Unfortunately, no matter how you try and twist it, there is no getting around the fact that the homosexual act is forbidden according to Torah Law and normative halacha. It is true that there have been attempts to reinterpret such laws by people, some even holding Orthodox semicha(I am not sure what you mean when you say that Steven Greenberg is a respected Orthodox Rabbi??)however it is unavoidable.
This, of course, does not mean that behaviour towards homosexuals should be anything other than compassionate but one cannot pass over the forbidden nature of the homosexual act according to normative Halacha. I am also not claiming that all the streams agree, rather that one cannot claim a normative halachic perspective yet condone the homosexual act. It is also important to not lose perspective. There are, unfortunately, many, many Orthodox synagogue attendees who almost openly violate the Shabbat, family purity laws, Kashrut, and a host of other clear and binding normative halachot, yet who receive aliyot, are not shunned and are welcomed.
I am aware that such a reality is not what the homosexual community is looking for – they are looking for true acceptance. However, that is the only way to try and bridge the gaps that exist in Am Yisrael. Similarly, the Reform don’t want the Orthodox to accept them because they are neatly categorised as Tinokot SheNishba – people who don’t know any better since they were raised in a non-Orthodox environment. They also want acceptance, however, due to the nature of Orthodoxy such positions contain the only possibility to ensure a kind of Jewish unity. Any other stance, such as accepting the people’s views and lifestyle for what they are would necessitate the complete disintegration of modern Jewry, atleast, where the Orthodox are concerned.
Amazing article here: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PragerHomosexuality.shtml
Shoshanna,
I am not sure where he gets some of his assertions from since he does not cite many sources. Although I do agree with some of what he writes, there is a great deal that is unsubstantiated and plain nonsensical.
Shoshana,
I just watched the video you posted on the rebbes view of homosexuality where one of his chasidim describes it as a disease that should be treated by explaining to men how god created the woman’s body in such an attractive way that ‘fits so well’ with a mans.
It may be worthwhile for you to read the research of Dr. Abba Borowich, an Orthodox psychiatrist who practiced reparative therapy for Orthodox homosexuals for nearly 30 years before concluding that this was an ineffective course of therapy which only increased suffering among his patients and their families.
Thank you Mark.
Yes, it certainly is a beautiful and evocative piece of commemorative sculpture. I remember stumbling across it and feeling a profound sense of reflection on the ‘pink triangle/yellow triangle’ badge I have contemplated much of my life.
I won’t step into what I see as the futile circles of technicalities and hypocrisies. Personally, I’d like to point out that I don’t see it as any more empowering to be ‘tolerated’ or ‘had compassion for’ ( although I do recognise that these sentiments are heartfelt and from the best of intentions). As always however, I accept that some dialogue is more positive than silence.
Mark, thanks again for proudly expressing your insightful take on humanity over halacha.
Benji
[...] Silcove: “I am against gay marriage” Shoshana Silcove posted a comment on Mark Baker’s blog on Galus Australis telling the world she is against gay marriage. That [...]
Come on Mark. Since when do you give a toot about Torah? Does Shabbat desecration concern you? Does people consuming non-Kohser bother you?
The way I know you – it certainly does not.
So why should homosexuality be a problem? It’s just another Torah law which has nothing to do with you.
Benji, I don;t see it as a case of humanity over halacha. Homosexuality is not like eating treif or desecrating shabbat. Halachik writing is emerging on the issue which differentiates the prohibitions in Leviticus which are associated with pagan rites from homosexuality as it is understood and practised today.
Ittay, that is only one psychiatrist’s opinion and of course, I do not agree with it. I am beholden to a much Higher Authority.
I am not saying it is easy, and I am not the judge, only Hashem is the judge, but homosexuality has been cured thousands of times. There is hope, there is a way out
Look here:http://www.jonahweb.org/index.php
and look at this book, which I haven’t read yet, but intend tohttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128069
Hi Shoshana,
I’m curious. When you say that you are beholden to a much Highter Authority, I’m wondering how you know what the Higher Authority’s views are on whether reparative therapy can be successful. Given that the Torah doesn’t mention sexual orientation at all (the only psukim that relate at all to homosexuality discuss sexual activities rather than orientation), how do you know what the Higher Authority thinks about this? Do you think that the Rebbe was a prophet, who spoke the word of God? I believe that you don’t accept that he is the Moshiach, so I’m curious. Also, do you know if there is any difference in opinion on this within the Chabad community?
I’m also wondering if other people have any information on whether there are Jewish communities other than Chabad that are promoting this type of ‘therapy’. I have always associated this type of thing with Christian groups, and wonder if people know how common it is in the Jewish world.
I would not take that YouTube video as representative of the Chabad’s view of homosexuality. It is the product of a lay-person with a beard – just look at some of his other videos. That said, I don’t know what the “official” view is – will do some research and see what I can come up with.
Efforts to “reconstruct” the biblical prohibition against male homosexual sex do not come from any Rabbinic source that can reasonably call itself Orthodox. Indeed, a term like “respected Orthodox gay Rabbi” is an oxymoron.
How do you know I do not believe the Rebbe was/is Moshiach or a prophet? I believe he was a prophet and could still be Moshiach, as a matter of fact, he is my Moshiach. But that is neither here nor there. My Higher Authority is Hashem. Clearly, Torah says homosexuality is an abomination against G-d. It is a sin, and a person has free choice whether or not to engage in any sin. It then follows logically that this therapy can and does work if the person chooses to help themselves. And there are those who can help themselves without therapy. Does this mean they will never have any homosexual lust ever again? Maybe, maybe not, but Torah is about controlling one’s behaviors, about not giving into one’s non-kosher base desires and bad impulses. We can all have some undesirable passions or drives of one kind or another. One person may be challenged with a great lust to cheat on their spouse, while another to steal, and yet another to eat non-kosher foods. The main thing is not to act upon anything that G-d deems as sinful. Sometimes we succeed and sometimes we fail. G-d rewards us not for being angelic,for He knows how human we are, after all, He created us like this. Hashem rewards us for the amount of effort we put into working to sanctify ourselves and the world around us by choosing not to sin and performing mitzvot.
Here is something that is probably a bit more representative of the Chabad view of homosexuality. Not an “illness” that requires a “cure”, rather a tendency toward particular behaviour that is prohibited by the Torah.
I learned a sicha in which the Rebbe likens it to a illness or a bad habit, if you will. He makes the analogy of a child who bangs his head against the wall. It is not normal behaviour and we will stop him from doing it.
The Rebbe’s view encapsulated here:
http://www.jonahweb.org/sections.php?secId=128
David Werdiger, the Rebbe does indeed call it an illness that needs a cure. See the link in my previous comment of the Rebbe’s sicha, he makes his view as clear as possible, there is no doubt.
I find it highly offensive and disreprectful when people tell me that because I am a homosexual man and I love and have sex with other men that I am a sinner, that I am sick, that I am broken, that I need fixing and that I can’t marry a person I want to.
I am a normal person who engages in normal activities. I am not broken. I am not sick. I do not need fixing. I do not need anyone to judge me or to tell me that how I choose to live my life is wrong.
If the way I live my life offends people then they can be offended. I truly don’t care. It’s their problem, not mine.
I don’t engage in make-believe. I don’t believe in supernatural powers, unprovable forces, deities or sky pixies. I don’t believe in an afterlife, a god or anything that can’t be proven. It’s complete fantasy and nonsense.
I don’t need to listen to drivel from people who do engage in make-believe when it comes to how I want to live my life. If you have something intelligent to say about how I live my life then I’ll entertain you. Otherwise, I’d be grateful if you’d but out of my life. I don’t but into your life and tell you how to live.
Mark Baker wrote this post with a view to healing the damage that has been perpetrated on gay men and women. Hearing of people quoting nonsense and poison only makes the problem worse.
I’d like to see some intelligent debate on this topic, however given my previous experience with engaging most of the people on Galus Australis, I know that this just won’t happen. So I won’t set my expectations higher and I won’t get disappointed.
Prove me wrong.
Michael.
Michael, You claim to want an intelligent debate, but I glean from your comment that this means only atheists like yourself who agree with you should be allowed, otherwise any other views are poisonous drivel and damaging to gay men. You assert that all religious people live in make believe. To me this says you have a deep prejudice against theologians and people of faith.
Do you believe that there should be no basis or standards of morality in the world? No reasonable person would. The world could not exist without moral standards. But having moral standards of any kind already imposes some kind of rules on how people ought to live. You obviously hold to a moral standard that says that people should not be believers in G-d or religion, isn’t that imposing your beliefs on me? You want acceptance yet you do not offer it in return. You say you want debate yet, you refuse to have your point of view challenged. This is very narrow minded. It’s your way or the highway, see the double standard?
Although my views on many issues probably differ alot from Shoshanna’s I do think one point needs to be addressed.
In our world today the homosexual lobby has made it politically incorrect to speak of utilising therapy to alter a persons sexual orientation. Indeed, many people believe that in all cases this is simply impossible.
I have personally spoken to a number of psychiatrists and psychologists who have admitted to me that they have, upon request, managed to successfully alter some people’s sexual orientation. One of them spoke about a high success rate of approximately 70%. That same psychologist, a very open minded, Modern Orthodox Jew(far removed from specific organisations dealing with this issue) admitted, that because of this number, he believes in many cases, therapy can be successful because in many cases there are underlying psychological issues that can be dealt with, however, that one must also recognise that in some cases, regardless of the patients desire, therapy will be unsuccessful because genetic/biological make up does play a role in some people’s sexual orientation. And for some people that is the reason they are homosexual.
Now obviously all of this is anecdotal and today you’d be hard pressed to find any study that would be so brazen as to even look into this issue.
Now, if some people request to undergo such psychological therapy and truly wish to alter their sexual orientation, surely there are less ethical issues with such a process. Surely the homosexual lobby should allow for such a possibility and not stifle debate.
If it is possible to truly alter sexual orientation(or deal with underlying psychological issues) and a person desires it, should that option not be available to them? Should that person not be able to try and live a happier life surrounded by many children, grandchildren and great grand children?
(I understand that there are options for this even within a homosexual lifestyle but the question is still valid. I do not speak of someone who has unsuccessfully undergone therapy and lives a lie, rather someone who truly begins to be attracted to women, perhaps, only to women).
I blame the homosexual lobby for not at least explaining to homosexuals that this may be an option.
Shoshana
I am not sure we are still discussing Marks article and paragraph 175. (Remember that – what the article was about?)
Part of our Jewish identity centers around religion itself, and I wont challenge you on “the rabbi said this”, or “the higher authority said that” arguments, since you will no doubt out-Jew me with your you-tube videos. Suffice to say, from your tone, and rigid perspective, I doubt you have any personal experience with the challenges faced by those in same-sex relationships to be accepted and have their relationships acknowledged.
I find it mildly amusing that you demand Michael accept your opinion, which amounts to nothing other than you deny the way he choses to love another person.
Ofcourse, if I visit a Jewish message board, I expect posts from different points of you, so was prepared to read yours (although once would have been enough) along with other perspectives on Jewish law from RachSD and Ittay.
Aside from religion itself, I do think Mark was at least partly referring to our culture and history of standing up against mistreatment of minorities on the basis of difference. For this reason alone, I appreciated the article.
I am unequivocally against mistreatment of homosexuals. Is Mark Baker a bit hysterical or paranoid? The illegality of gay marriage is not exactly the same as making homosexuality itself illegal, and it is a far cry from throwing gay people into gas chambers. I do not believe in gay marriage for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that it would devalue the definition of marriage. Marriage must remain between a man and a woman, or it becomes a slippery slope–first gays, then polygamy or group marriages or even marriage to animals. A couple of years ago a crazy Israeli woman ‘married’ a dolphin-I kid you not! Do you want to live is a society without any boundaries? Call me rigid if you like, but I don’t!
Ari,
First, therapy usually (though not always – eg most cosmetic surgery) implies illness, which homosexuality is not. Therefore regardless of claims of effectiveness there are ethical issues with offering ‘reparative’ therapy.
Second, I wonder what standard your friend is using with which to judge the efficacy of the therapy. I think that Dr Abba Borowich, who Ittay mentioned in his comment, writes that initially he thought that reparative therapy was effective because patients moved one point on a psychological scale designed to measure sexuality. However, in the long term he found that the patients who received reparative therapy experienced family break downs and other psychological problems in the long term. These sorts of potential long term risks would have to taken into account when evaluating the efficacy of such a therapy.
Michael,
Whilst it is confronting to read some of the views expressed in this thread and the previous one, if these views are widely held in a larg-ish part of the community, then I doubt that censoring them would be productive. After all, the people who are at risk of suffering the most from these sorts of views are surely the children growing up in these communities who are apparently being sent to reparative therapy, and barring people from writing will not help them. If these views exist, then debating and discussing can only be positive.
Michael,
When Mark’s piece makes a link between the intolerance of the Nazi regime toward both gays and Jews, and suggest that as Jews we should be champions against such injustices, you are most supportive. Yet you display a disparaging intolerance toward anyone who doesn’t agree with your own belief system (or lack of). Do you see a glaring hypocrisy in that?
The intention of my post was to raise the issue that today it is almost impossible to conduct an honest scientific study of the effectiveness of altering one’s sexual orientation. As I mentioned, my discussions with various professionals(not my friends – I really don’t like psychologists as friends, they’re generally a bit odd
) tended to suggest to me that therapy was possible although the evidence has to remain anecdotal(perhaps similar to the assertions of Dr. Borowich.) It seems to me that a large part of the debate regarding homosexuality relates to whether it is the outcome of biological or psychological factors yet today it is difficult to even suggest psychological factors. I am not a student of the social or natural sciences and so I am unaware of any of the studies(perhaps someone following this thread can put up some links to journal articles containing the results of some scientific studies) however it seems odd that all cases are biological.
After you mentioned that therapy does not always imply sickness I tried to think for a while about an analogy and I have a very imperfect one(imperfect because there are not many things that can be compared to a persons sexual orientation in terms of leading a fulfilling life). But in any case I thought it may be helpful to look at something less charged.
Let us say that there is a person who is over-weight. Now, I am not sure if it defined as a disease(maybe obescity is). Now this person has self-esteem issues. There are a few avenues open to this person and other people like them. The first is to try and change society’s perception of body image which may effect the person’s self-esteem. They could quite possibly begin to feel like being over weight is part of their identity and should be accepted by all. The second option is to try and suggest that the person speaks to a dietician in order to lose the weight – and this may also have a positive effect on the person’s self esteem. Now, it may or may not be possible to do this via a dietician because some people are overweight for psychological reasons, others because of a lack of education, others due to biological reasons and yet others, sadly, because of illness.
Now taking a step back and analysing this situation we can make the following observations:
* Both options are important, because some people cannot alter their being overweight and some do not wish to.
* The second option is also important, because some people want to be able to try and alter their situation in that direction. One can argue that it is society that should change but on the whole there would still be alot of people who would opt to try and lose weight, because overall, people at the average weight have a more fulfilling life. They can play with their kids, go on nature walks, have more energy and many other things. It is true, that overweight people can watch their kids play, go on a nature drive, etc. But on the whole their life is not as fulfilling and may be shorter.
In terms of the situation of homosexuality, why is it that the second option is not available? It is because, if the homosexual lobby admits that there are circumstances where homosexuality is caused by psychological issues then their case becomes weaker. Because then it implies that in some cases it is an illness and not an unchangeable biological feature. But shouldn’t someone who believes that a heterosexual life is more fulfilling be aware that their orientation can be altered in many circumstances? Shouldn’t atleast studies be conducted? Shouldn’t the homosexual lobby be honest with itself? I fear that it is not, and this is a great tragedy for some. Leading to people who did have some psychological trauma causing them to become unattracted to the opposite sex, to be stuck in a life of homosexuality, when they are naturally heterosexual.
Rachel – I am not sure what you would define as an illness and how you view homosexuality. In a case where it is biological what would it be defined as? In a case where it is psychological what would it be defined as?
David W,
I am not telling anyone how to live their lives, or judging anyone because of their religious beliefs, as fantastical as they are.
On the other hand, there is no end to the number of people who will condemn the way I live my life, tell me I am a sinner, or am sick, or something equally pathetic. They will also preach their beliefs to me and try to tell me how I can better myself. Honestly, I am not falling for that.
I don’t subscribe to the ancient clap-trap that I was brought up to believe. I realised at the age of 10 that there was no god, because it was a silly joke that I had grown out of, much like the tooth fairy and other games of make believe.
It has taken me most of my life to unravel the lies and deceit of the culture I was brought up in. It has been a painful and raw process but it has brought me to a better place in my life.
Here, at that place in my life, I can honestly say that I understand myself and the world around me. Our world is truly amazing, but just because it is and for no other reason. I don’t need stories of supernatural powers to try and explain away our world. They fail over and over again. There is nothing supernatural about the world we live in and nothing supernatural controlling it.
Yet it always comes down to “So, how did the universe begin?” as the last desperate straw is clutched. I genuinely don’t know, but I would like to know. I do know one thing. Lack of an explanation is not proof of any deity. That’s just plain silly.
I bring the argument back to the painful suffering of gay men and women, at the hands of the regimes that persecute us daily around the world, mainly because of intolerance, ignorance and fear, and always because of religion. I put it to you and others following this discussion, are you prepared to accept this persecution of same-sex attracted people, or will you stand up and denounce it?
Whether the persecution is a public hanging of a homosexual boy in Iran or educating your children that homosexuality is a sin, both are equally destructive. The difference is the sinister intolerance of silent homophobia is going to kill the same-sex attracted person, perhaps your son or daughter, slowly and over a long period of time.
To answer your question. No, there is no hyprocrisy. Just honesty.
Michael.
Ve-Ahavta Lerayacha Kamocha
“I bring the argument back to the painful suffering of gay men and women, at the hands of the regimes that persecute us daily around the world, mainly because of intolerance, ignorance and fear, and always because of religion.” I am not certain that the Nazi’s persecuted homosexuals because of religion! In fact I believe they persecuted many people based on “science” and logical proof.
People should read the following:
The psychotherapeutic treatment of male homosexuality
Berger, Joseph. American Journal of Psychotherapy. New York: Spring 1994. Vol. 48, Iss. 2; pg. 251
where he concludes:
Three main conclusions are reached. First, that some people who have had homosexual fantasies, behaviors, or identified themselves as homosexual, can become comfortably and fulfilling heterosexual with psychotherapeutic treatment. Second, that human sexuality is not rigidly compartmentalized into either hetero-or homosexuality but varies on a continuous spectrum, and is affected in any individual by psychodynamic influences.
Third, that before “coming out,” young people, especially teenagers, should have the opportunity to explore their sexual identity with a psychodynamically oriented psychotherapist.
but also http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
Live and let live I say. Either we are committed to democracy or not. In a democracy, one person’s view should not be imposed on another’s if it doesn’t affect them. In my opinion, that is an argument in favour of same-sex marriage, if there is true separation of church and state then it should be acceptable for same-sex attracted individuals to wed, whether in a civil ceremony or in a religious ceremony if the Rabbi is willing to perform it.
Though I am mostly secular, I would not regard myself as an atheist and was raised on Orthodox Judaism. In the same way that I support same-sex marriage, I respect religious people’s right to differ on this matter, and therefore I see this matter as being similar to the question of refusal of doctors to conduct abortions on the basis of their personal conscience. If you don’t believe in something, that is your right, but I don’t think this should be forcefully imposed on others. We should all respect each others right to live life as we choose, and as I see it, for the sake of civil rights and liberties same-sex marriage should be legal so long as there is a demand for it and there are practitioners willing to perform it, be it secular or religious. For those who don’t agree, that’s your prerogative, but there is only one judge, G-d, and it is not up to us to make the call on his behalf.
Though I have no personal stake in the matter, there are two issues I do have a problem with. Firstly, the argument for compassion instead of acceptance. It is just not up to us to make that call, that is a secular argument and a religious one. From a secular perspective, we should respect individual liberties. From a religious perspective, G-d alone is the judge. I am by no means a learned scholar myself, but I have heard this same argument from mainstream, respected Rabbis within the Chabad movement as well.
Secondly, there is no moral equivalence between same-sex marriage and polygamy or beastiality and that is simply narrow minded to claim otherwise. I am open to hear any opinion and can accept religious justifications to many things, but there is no justification for that and this argument is just plain old. With a divorce rate of about 1/3 of the population same-sex marriage would hardly erode the institution, and I would even assume that after such a long struggle for this right to be granted that at least in this generation same-sex couples seeking to wed would probably have a far higher appreciation for the right to marry than heterosexual couples. I could rant on and on, so I’ll just leave it at that.
Frankly, I do not see persecution of homosexuals in our society, in fact, I see much of the opposite. Hollywood and the media promote it as being cool. We are bombarded by the media with attractive images of a gay lifestyle. Public schools educate young people to accept it as normal. Universities are rife with pro-homosexual propaganda. Homosexual lobbies and politically correct activists use the accusation of ‘homophobe’ to silence any detractors or critics. Most gays are statistically more educated and more well off than the average married/divorced people with kids. Yet, there are still a significant number of homosexual activists who insist that all of this is still not enough. They want, even demand total acceptance and they consider anything less than that to be oppression. I believe that if they truly accepted themselves as normal they would not be so loudly demanding total acceptance from everyone in society. There must be somewhere inside their souls even a small nagging feeling that perhaps the way they are living is not quite correct, or else why would they make so much noise?
Okay, I am expecting to be called a bigot, homophobe, a reactionary, and every other name in the book–all these insults are methods of detracting away from dealing with the issues raised and an attempt to censor a free exchange of opinions.
Ari
I am someone who has been on the receiving end of conversion therapy (do we put “sic” after therapy here?). (I say “receiving end” because I refuse to use the word “victim.”)
I can say there is a good reason why people reject conversion therapy.
That reason is because the effects can only be called brain-washing and torture. I walked around, zombie-like, as my brain was pushed away from my heart and soul.
Such therapy automatically implies there is something “wrong” with someone’s sexual orientation (or in my case, gender identity, althouigh the arguments here are exactly paralell).
Furthermore, if, hypothetically, conversion therapy works, let’s have experiments “converting” people from heterosexuality to homosexuality.
It is also, prejudiced against bisexuals, as it assumes people can only “change” from homo to heterosexuality and there are two binary points.
So in summary, we don’t talk about conversion therapy because health professionals reject it for what it is and decent human values reject it too.
Cheeyars
Sally
Ari
The most intelligent thing you have said out of all the reames you have written was:
“I am not a student of the social or natural sciences and so I am unaware of any of the studies..”
Why didn’t you tell us that at the start?
Shoshanna:
“Most gays are statistically more educated and more well off than the average married/divorced people with kids.”
Let me guess – you think all homosexuals are university educated (or pop stars or fashion designers). And you don’t believe plumbers and farmers could be gay men. Not to mention lesbians. Of course none of them have kids do they?
Just what is it that you think gives gays a financial advantage? Job security and bonuses beyond merit from over-compassionate employers? Because their loving families say they don’t have to buy them birthday presents?
Say, you might know why homosexuality has had a natural selection advantage to persist through millions of years of evolution in thousands of mammalian species (We will ignore all those silly fish that change their gender and mess up the natural order of things).
Michael Barnett wrote,”… don’t subscribe to the ancient clap-trap that I was brought up to believe. I realised at the age of 10 that there was no god, because it was a silly joke that I had grown out of, much like the tooth fairy and other games of make believe…’
I so pity you. This is as shallow and immature critique of faith as one can find. You are completely and utterly ignorant of our theology. And the sad part about it is that you are so convinced that you have a sophisticated comprehension and, have closed your mind to learning anything because you truly believe you understand it all. You are bitter because of your own inner turmoil and psychological pain,and you lash out and blame society and religion.
You proclaim not to care what people may think of how you live, but I suspect the opposite is true, otherwise why would you keep asserting that? Why are you so intent on receiving acceptance? For example, as a religious Jew I am aware that many people do not accept my way of life. But do I care? No! Do you bitterly whine and cry, “why don’t those haters accept me!” Of course not! And do you know why? Because I know inside my soul that I am living correctly. When a person knows deeply that they are doing the right thing then they do not get defensive and do not need acceptance. But when a person feels a twinge of guilt about how they are living, this gnaws at them, and they become over-sensitive and thin skinned.
correction–Do I bitterly whine and cry, “why don’t those haters accept me!”
I don’t want or need your pity. Save it for the parents of the next young person who suicides because of the intolerance and ignorance of your community’s beliefs. It could be one of your children, or a child of someone you know.
There is so much wrong in your telling response I do not know where to begin. You seem so bitter. How dare you imply that somehow I, or any G-d fearing Jews, are callous oppressors. The opposite is true as we are a community that is filled with compassion and kindness. Are you wishing tragedy on your fellow observant Jews? I hope not. And you will not put that guilt trip on me, and it is pretty manipulative and small of you to try to throw all that guilt at me. Torah is good and holy and holding steadfast by its teachings could never and will never cause anyone to commit suicide.
You see it is very difficult to deal with a person who thinks and reacts like you do. I gave my position clearly, and instead of logically or reasonably dealing with a single one of my clearly spelled out reasons and points on the issues, you rail against It religion, demonize religious people, and spew your venom. You sir, are not an honest, informed, or fair-minded defender of your cause. You are a fanatic driven by your emotional baggage. You turn people off to your cause with your ‘us vs them’ anti-heterosexual anti-religious bigotry.
Michael spends plenty of time challenging those in the Jewish community to confront and question their attitudes and beliefs. My observation is that many don’t want to step outside their faith, they are so frightened by what they might discover.
To be an observant Jew you need to have faith in an unrealistic world view. You need to come to terms with a mean and vindictive God who has stood back while his people have suffered and died, I don’t understand how you can continue to believe in that thing you call god when so many people in the 20th century died simply because of a mad man disaster, let alone the natural disasters. I’ve seen and heard all the explanations for the continued ignorance of the world around you. Snap out of it, there is no god.
Mark’s article really brings it home, people like me, who are gay, are treated like second class citizens for no reason at all. Hate, abuse and violence continue to be hurled my way in physical and non physical ways, and enough is enough. The continued inaction by the people of Australia to insist on equal rights for all citizens is reprehensible, and I don’t give a flying toss what the basis of your faith is. I reject your faith and I don’t want your faith to impact on my life, any more than you want my non-faith to impact on your right to believe. The right to marry will no diminish your own relationship, the world will not come to an end and there will never be condoned relationships with animals. To even use the slippery slope concept is so offensive that I just can’t comprehend the nature of the small mind that still thinks that way.
I am a man. I am human. I love a man, and I want to spend my life with him, I want to be able to express that love in an open and public way, whether that’s marriage or holding hands as we walk down the street, I want it. And why shouldn’t I have it? Why should religion continue to provide a barrier to happiness based on outdated texts that to a vast majority of the citizens of the world mean nothing.
Michael is really good at making the point that you don’t know just who is gay. And you don’t. While you continue to spread the lies about how you are open and tolerant of homosexuals, the reality is that you aren’t because you then use the Torah as a basis for maintaining that in your belief homosexuality is an abomination and in your holy text homosexuals should be stoned. It’s written in just about every language that the bible/torah has been translated into. It’s good that we don’t actually do that stoning in our western culture, but it’s still there. When you claim the torah as your authority for how to live your life, you impart to those coming along behind you that you take the word of god seriously, if that child happens to be gay, then you are telling them that they are an abomination and in the old days they would have been stoned to death.
The world should never again see anyone, any one group of people, murdered as happened in World War II. It is incumbent upon us to ensure that it never happens again, whether you are jewish, gay or something else, do your best to make sure that no one is victimised and brutalised because of the way they are. I accept as part of my belonging to this society that I must accept people of faith, I must not infringe upon your right to believe, that doesn’t mean I can’t point out how silly I think it is, and I accept that people may do the same to me and my world view, I can roll with that. But the government of this democracy should not stand idle because a portion of us want to continue to force their world view on the rest of us. You want a world of love and understanding and acceptance? Then you need to start working on it.
Shoshana,
Last year Yeshiva University’s Wilf Campus in Washington Heights held a panel titled “Being Gay in the Modern Orthodox World.” It was run by the Wurzweiler School of Social Work, and the Yeshiva University Tolerance Club. Three alumni and a current YU student spoke about their homosexuality. Rabbi Yosef Blau, mashgiach ruchani of Yeshiva University, was the moderator. In his words, the panel was meant to address “the pain and the conflict that is caused by someone being gay in the Orthodox world.”
You can watch a video of the panel here.
http://vimeo.com/8362853
http://vimeo.com/8356037
Let me know what you think once you have seen it, and then i have question for you.
Thanks
Shoshana, burying your head in the sand will not save anyone from suicide.
I ask you to read this blog about three beautiful young men who are dead because of their religious family’s lack of unconditional love for them.
My friend Simon took his life because he was rejected by his deeply religious family and felt worthless because of their lack of unconditional love for him and rejection of the person he was. No god came to their rescue.
Bobby took his life because his deeply religious mother pushed him so far away because of her inability to come to terms with who he was that jumped off a bridge and took his own life. No god came to their rescue.
Danny died because his Chassidic family and community rejected him because of who he was. He didn’t die from suicide but because he was not educated about safe sex, got HIV and died from an AIDS related illness. His family rejected him to the end. They didn’t love him very much. No god came to his rescue.
Shoshana, you can call me whatever names you like. I’ve been called far better names by people far more ignorant than you. You’ll have to try harder on that count.
In the end there is no god who will save your children from suicide if that’s what they really want to do. No god saved Bobby. No god saved Simon. No god saved Danny. You know why? There is no god.
God is the biggest hoax that has ever been perpetrated on this planet. No god came to the rescue of the 11 to 17 million people who were murdered at the hands of the NAZIs. No god came to their rescue. Deny that and keep a straight face.
No god came to the rescue of my family members who were murdered by the NAZIs. I bet they prayed like there was no tomorrow, and guess what. Nothing.
You might like to take a moment and step outside your comfort zone and investigate some of my claims. They’re not unfounded. They’re all based in reality, science, research, dead bodies, human pain, misery and suffering.
Your claims are smoke and mirrors, deception, fantasy and make-believe. What evidence do you have for anything you have said on here, or elsewhere? It’s all hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo, and to reiterate my earlier term, clap-trap.
I am not poison. I am not a fanatic. I do not spew venom.
Over to you. I’m keen to hear your logical, rational reply.
Michael.
“Michael spends plenty of time challenging those in the Jewish community to confront and question their attitudes and beliefs. My observation is that many don’t want to step outside their faith, they are so frightened by what they might discover.”
So far, on this blog, Michael has not come up with a single reasoned or logical challenge to any one of my stated positions on the issues. All he has done is vent animosity toward ‘religion’ without differentiating among religions nor specifying or justifying his invective .
“To be an observant Jew you need to have faith in an unrealistic world view. You need to come to terms with a mean and vindictive God who has stood back while his people have suffered and died, I don’t understand how you can continue to believe in that thing you call god when so many people in the 20th century died simply because of a mad man disaster, let alone the natural disasters. I’ve seen and heard all the explanations for the continued ignorance of the world around you. Snap out of it, there is no god.”
Torah’s view of G-d is not vindictive. Your ignorance of Judaism is starkly showing through here. Torah Judaism has deep, complex theological and mystical bodies of thought that deal with the topic of why innocents people suffer. This is a huge topic that cannot be covered on a blog. But you digress, what does this have to do with the fact that Michel has no reasoned answers to those who do not agree with his position?
“Mark’s article really brings it home, people like me, who are gay, are treated like second class citizens for no reason at all. Hate, abuse and violence continue to be hurled my way in physical and non physical ways, and enough is enough. The continued inaction by the people of Australia to insist on equal rights for all citizens is reprehensible, and I don’t give a flying toss what the basis of your faith is. I reject your faith and I don’t want your faith to impact on my life, any more than you want my non-faith to impact on your right to believe. The right to marry will no diminish your own relationship, the world will not come to an end and there will never be condoned relationships with animals. To even use the slippery slope concept is so offensive that I just can’t comprehend the nature of the small mind that still thinks that way.”
I will reiterate–I am unequivocally against mistreatment of any human beings including homosexuals, or anyone at all. No one is denying gays the right to live as they want, in fact, most of you live very well and with much freedom in our society, and you have the media and the politically correct universities trumpeting your cause. But as you know we also have religious freedom in this country,and as long as there are enough people who do not agree with your acceptance of homosexuality, there will be no gay marriage. I hope that doesn’t change but, that does not make me an oppressor.It makes me a person with moral boundaries that differ from yours, a person who wants to maintain the traditional model of marriage as between man and a woman because I do believe morality is a slippery slope as that is human nature.
“I am a man. I am human. I love a man, and I want to spend my life with him, I want to be able to express that love in an open and public way, whether that’s marriage or holding hands as we walk down the street, I want it. And why shouldn’t I have it? Why should religion continue to provide a barrier to happiness based on outdated texts that to a vast majority of the citizens of the world mean nothing.”
And where in Australia, or anywhere in the Western world today, are you kept from expressing your homosexuality out in public? Granted, there are sickos who would like to taunt you and beat you up, and they are criminals and should be stopped, but the state cannot govern the hatred that exists in some small peoples’ hearts. You are asking the state to make everyone love and accept your way of life. You are demanding people not have the right to believe in their own religious moral standards that you don’t like–and that is wrong on your part.
“Michael is really good at making the point that you don’t know just who is gay. And you don’t. While you continue to spread the lies about how you are open and tolerant of homosexuals, the reality is that you aren’t because you then use the Torah as a basis for maintaining that in your belief homosexuality is an abomination and in your holy text homosexuals should be stoned. It’s written in just about every language that the bible/torah has been translated into. It’s good that we don’t actually do that stoning in our western culture, but it’s still there. When you claim the torah as your authority for how to live your life, you impart to those coming along behind you that you take the word of god seriously, if that child happens to be gay, then you are telling them that they are an abomination and in the old days they would have been stoned to death.”
So what if we don’t know who is gay? Likewise, we don’t know who is an adulterer, a thief or a murderer, but that doesn’t mean we accept and make adultery, stealing, or murder kosher.
“The world should never again see anyone, any one group of people, murdered as happened in World War II. It is incumbent upon us to ensure that it never happens again, whether you are jewish, gay or something else, do your best to make sure that no one is victimised and brutalised because of the way they are. I accept as part of my belonging to this society that I must accept people of faith, I must not infringe upon your right to believe, that doesn’t mean I can’t point out how silly I think it is, and I accept that people may do the same to me and my world view, I can roll with that. But the government of this democracy should not stand idle because a portion of us want to continue to force their world view on the rest of us. You want a world of love and understanding and acceptance? Then you need to start working on it.”
The role of government is to enforce the law and protect people’s rights to live freely without being assaulted etc. It is not the government’s job to set a standard of morality or to change the moral traditions that society has relied upon for thousands of years.
Michael Barnett,
It is indeed heart wrenching to hear about people who kill themselves, no matter who they are. But suicide is complicated and, who knows if these homosexuals in the frum community who killed themselves did so because they were suffering from being oppressed as gays, or because they were depressed? Who knows if their homosexuality was not a sympton of larger emotional problems? I don’t think anyone can know these things except for Hashem. And there are certainly frum people who mistreat people for being gay, just as there are frum people who mistreat people for all sorts of reasons. But what has all this got to do with the price of fish in China? The same Torah that is against homosexuality is also against persecuting anyone. To say that because some Jews who are frum persecute and mistreat people, or specifically in this case gays, that because of their cruelty then there is no G-d or that Judaism is all a fantasy, is just plain silly and based completely on ignorance and your emotional reaction. For every case of gays who were mistreated in the frum world for being ga,y I am sure there are at least ten cases of gay frum people who are treated with great compassion by their families and communities. You are so incredibly biased!
How very “pot calling kettle black” are you?
“The role of government is to enforce the law and protect people’s rights to live freely without being assaulted etc. It is not the government’s job to set a standard of morality or to change the moral traditions that society has relied upon for thousands of years.”
Well, you’re almost half way there. The government continues to discriminate against gay people, and it’s rubbish to suggest that it’s not their role as our representatives to reflect the ethical view of us. We no longer have slavery, we don’t stone people, we allow everyone the right to vote, regardless of their skin colour, and so on and so on. These are changes made in spite of religious text.
“Granted, there are sickos who would like to taunt you and beat you up, and they are criminals and should be stopped, but the state cannot govern the hatred that exists in some small peoples’ hearts.”
A good start to helping these sickos is to make it ok to be gay, it’s not ok because people like you continue to hide behind your religion as a way of enforcing your world view on the rest of us. While the major religions of this world continue to view homosexuality as an abomination, the sickos of the world will feel authorised to taunt and beat as they see fit. What are you doing to stop the criminals? Nothing.
You keep your fancy religion, you spend your days studying others words that simply try to justify and explain the unjustifiable and unexplainable. They are just concoctions to give you comfort and keep you in the faith.
I’m ignorant of many things, but sometimes, standing on the outside, as I do with judaism, is a real benefit, it shows that your faith is bogus and rubbish, in exactly the same way as you view people who hold different views to you. Try removing yourself from your faith and look at it honestly, it’s not possible that it’s true when you truly open your mind and look at it from the outside. You are the one with a closed mind.
Shoshanna:
“You are completely and utterly ignorant of our theology.”
And you think you can tell from a few hundred words? Judgment belongeth to the Lord and Shoshanna.
“Why are you so intent on receiving acceptance? For example, as a religious Jew I am aware that many people do not accept my way of life. But do I care? No!….”
..and on and on you go. Your preoccupation with the messages here and other people’s private lives make it clear that you do care. And even worse you want to change people you do not even know. If you really want to claim the high moral ground you could at the very least be honest with yourself and with the readers of this page.
Michael expresses concern about suicide, an evidence-based opinion, and you say “you seem so bitter”.
Callous: emotionally hardened, indifferent to suffering
Callous oppressor: someone who stones another to death – you may have moved away from stoning people (physically that is) but you still have the same vengeful god and you still have the same sense of moral superiority to the extent you want not just acceptance but everyone else to act in the same way you do.
To me, that is fundamentally immoral because it is psychological stoning. And yes, sometimes bullying kills.
[...] Sunday, July 18, 2010 at 6:38 pm [SOURCE] [...]
[...] makes me angry. Very angry. Go ahead. Laugh. Call me names like Shoshana Silcove does on Galus Australis. Call me venomous. Call me a fanatic. Call me [...]
I apologise, Micahel Barnett.
His article here:
http://mikeybear.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/john-searle-part-2-or-the-story-of-the-class-fool/#comment-81
It was not my intent to insult you. We have differeing views on this subject. I do not have anything against you as a person, as a matter of fact, I don’t even know you.
I re-read my comment (I clicked on the hyper link of the word ‘name’in your article above) and although I do not think I called you any names at all, was just expressing my views, you do think so, and that’s fair enough.
But I ask, when someone has a view that is not aligning with yours, do you automatically take it personally? There will always be a majority of the population that does not accept homosexuality like you want it to be accepted. Are we not allowed to state our views without being accused of being insulting or homophobes and the like.
Michael, it is quite sad for you, but honestly, most people just don’t accept your radical gay agenda, and they are not going to throw out their careers or make it their number one priority. I know it is frustrating for you, but it won’t change. And most people have never and will never accept homosexualtiy as normal like you want them to. Even if they legalise gay marriage, most people will I believe still in their hearts not feel it is completely normal. This is a fact of life you either have to live with or turn heterosexual.
And respecftully sir, you are not a member of the Orthodox community but, I am, znd I can tell you we do indeed discuss issues like homosexuality and suicide, but not in the way you want us to. We discuss them in our own way, we handle them in our own political rallies. We do it bu caring for and taking care of people as indidviduals.
I could very well feel insulted the way you constantly demonise and ddenigrate Orthodox Judaism and Jews. But I have a thick skin and don’t take it so personally. I understand you are upset with your life, and maybe you have good reason.
We are all equal in the eyes of G-d. I pray Michael, my fellow Jew, that you find inner peace and happiness in your life and that you are able to help any suffering souls who are suicidal to choose life.
sorry for the typos, was rushing so I can get wot work
Micahel Barnett,
Just want to say, I am not your enemy. I do not support your gay agenda, but I have no hatred for you as a person, in fact, I admire your willingness to fight for what you believe in,
Yawn.
I’m not the one living in the Dark Ages. There’s nothing radical about my “gay agenda”.
Only people with spare children would not want to make youth suicide prevention a #1 priority. Do you have a spare child Shoshana? Imagine if your son wasn’t there tomorrow. Would you have wanted to do anything to save his life? Maybe not it would seem, because it’s not your #1 priority.
Michael.
Michael,
come one, be a mentch, at least accept my apology, and stop suggesting that I don’t care about teen suicide and stop the guilt tripping too.
With you it is a single issue and if someone doesn’t agree with your entire agenda the way you perceive it, that your issue is the most important issue in the universe, then you feel they are against you and accuse them of not caring enough. Suicide is important, but so is death by other horrible things, like drugs, aids, murder, terror, anti-semitism, depression, mental illness, and so are a myriad of other problems we deal with. The Orthodox community is excellent at looking after people, much better than the secular world.
Let’s agree to disagree. No hard feelings, eh?
This form of child abuse is completely preventable, yet you and your community perpetrate it on a daily basis, shamelessly.
Do you condone sexual abuse? Physical abuse? You seem complacent with psychological abuse.
I won’t agree to anything until the abuse stops.
That is like asking me, ‘When did you stop beating your child?” How do you expect me to answer such a question that is really an attack and meant to accuse me of being complacent about abuse? I do not accept your charges against the entire frum community. They are totally unfounded and unfair and completely untrue! You expect to get support for your cause from us when you continually demonise our community?
You seem to live in a world where all gay people are always heroic and victimized and all religious people are victimizers and cruel. That is just not the way things are in the real world. There are more shades of grey.
This discussion is futile. You will never get anywhere with the frum world beause your attitude is too anti-religious and rigid
Anthony, earlier I saw an anonymous comment that called homosexuality a perversion, akin to bestiality and pedophillia, and you removed it. It wasn’t abusive, it was an opinion, albeit one you don’t agree with, and you won’t allow it to be aired. It is a legitimate opinion but, you are not into airing legitimate opinions, only ones you agree with.
The lasy line of my comment should read:
There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between all these perversions (or to make you happy “perversions”).
Shoshanna,
The comment was not removed because of what it said about homosexuality, but what it said about homosexuals (note the important difference). The comment accused gay men (as a general group) of actively engaging in paedophilia. This is a common and untrue slander, and thus it was removed.
If you wish to discuss such slander, I suggest you do it on your own website.
And why not discuss the issue if it is true or not that there is a relationship between gay men and pedophilia? Why is this topic taboo for you? It seems it is a fair timely topic and should be open for discussion. It seems to me you are taking on the role as pro-gay propagandist or censor. Let’s see if you will remove this post now.
Shoshanna,
You’ll note that we do not allow our website to become a forum for discussing if Jews really do use gentile child blood in making matza. Equating being gay with engaging in paedophilia is arguably an equivalent slander.
Discuss such matters on your own website. We didn’t start this website to become a forum for spreading slander and hatred.
This is the final time we are going to explain this to you.
Whi is ‘we’? And I do not put discussing gay men and pedophilia in the same catagory as using the slander of blood for gentile children, that is an outrageous comparison. You are the prejudiced one.
Shoshana, your insinuation that there is any possible connection between homosexuality and pedophilia is deeply disturbing. Just more evidence of the vile hate-speak against gay people that is rampant in ill-informed religious communities.
I’m not sure if you read secular newspapers, but in any case let me share with you something in today’s Age newspaper. There’s a story online today (here) that is about a female school teacher who sexually assaulted two of her male students. In case you don’t understand the point I am making, this is about a woman sexually abusing young boys.
Pretty disgusting huh? That’s a heterosexual woman raping boys. No sign of any homosexuality.
Most child abuse is heterosexual. You want to know why? There are more heterosexual child abusers out there.
This conversation simply goes to show that there is a vast amount of ignorance in your world about gay people. Further, this ignorance simply compounds the suffering that oppressed same-sex attracted people in religious communities face. There is no hope for happiness when this amount of hate-speak and intolerance exists.
[Eds: Personal attack on Ms Silcove removed]
‘Religious Pluralist says:
July 21, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Hi Michael,
I don’t think you should generalise that religious people all are so ignorant and hateful like Shoshanna.
Question for all of you:
What does the gay Jewish community have in common with the Lubavitch and Addass community.
Answer: The all have a low opinion of Shoshanna
Finally, a question just for Shoshanna.
Are you concerned, as a homophobic woman, that you personally, given your demonstrations of hatred and ignorance, might turn previously straight men away from heterosexuality? Everytime I think about you, I think I become a little less straight.’
Anthony, why don’t you call this comment ‘defamatory and removed by administrator”? Is that fair? Not at all!
anyone who disagrees with the Gay Lobby is demonised as homophobic and hateful. My opinion of homosexuality is shared by 99% of the frum world. You are a RELIGIO–PHOBE!!!
RP, you are just being nasty and childish. Obviously not to much to add to the discussion.
And FYI, whatever Adass and Lubavicth think of SS, they will all applaud who stand on thi sthread.
Micahel,
Your comments show your community is vastly ignorant about Torah Judaism and its stance on sexuality. I suggest you find a bonafide Torah scholar of a authentic persuasion to enlighten you as to exactly what Torah teaches about this issue.
In the meantime, all I said was that I do not believe the subject of a possible connection between gay men and pedophilia should be taboo. I do not believe this is a closed case, and I have read that while some assert like you have that there is no connection, other studies have asserted quite the opposite. It should be open to discussion, but not in your book, you simply call it slander and close the book. Worse, you demonise the entire religious community for asking the question.
What makes you think,Michael, that you are more well educated than our smartest Rabbonim? I do not believe that your are at all.Why are you so smug?
Of course, I know that there are many straight people who do abusive and perverted things to children. And it is wrong and horrible and must be stopped. I have always been a proponent of protecting children against abuse of all kinds. Your comment suggesting that somehow I wouldn’t is hitting below the belt.
Your entire modus operandi is that you set the rules for debate that favour your point of view, and then you demonise anyone who has a differing opinion to yours by calling them homophobic, ignorant, and hateful, and in this way you hope to drown out all opposition. Well, not all of us are easily intimidated.
I challenge you to show me these studies that draw parallels between homosexuality and pedophilia Shoshana. Show me these credible studies, with all their accredited research and prove to me that they are valid and authentic.
I will be happy to do some research.
But we’re not allowed to discuss this on this blog. Ask Anthony, he forbade it. It’ taboo cause its homophobia, whatever that means. Homophobia is a made up disorder. I don’t know anyone who is terrified of gays. It is a word used by the gay lobby to intimidate their critics into silence.
I often liked lot of gay guys. They make great friends to women and they are often really good looking too, pity that for all those single girls out there on the hunt.
I must admit, most lesbians are not my cup of tea, mostly too masculine and we have different interests, if you know what I mean.
Shoshanna,
Since Michael has requested it, feel free to post some links to some bonafide peer reviewed academic research.
We won’t hold our collective breath.
Hi Shoshana,
It is very difficult for the editors to moderate comments that are made by others about you if you respond to them before we see them. If you would like to bring a particular to comment to our attention, please email us at editorial AT galusaustralis DOT com and note that if your email is sent late at night, we may not see it until the next day.
Reagrdless, whether or not I have the scholarly ability (or time or motivation) to find such shcolarly studies, the Torah prohibition against homosexuality stands for all time. So in the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter whoat one’s views are, if one regards gay men as potential pedophiles, or if one likes or dilikes gay culture etc.–it is still againt Hashem’s will: end of dicsussion.
I think this discussion has been exhausted. I stand by the Rebbe’ s discourse on this topic and wish all my opponents on this thread health, happiness, and a complete refuah shalaymah.
No Shoshana. You can’t get out of it that easily. You make an accusation about gay people that you then you refuse to substantiate. That is cowardly.
I shouldn’t be surprised, coming from a person who claims a god and won’t substantiate that claim either.
Show me the proof or apologise.
Michael.
I never made a claim, I only suggested that there should be a discussion, that it may be open to question, whether or not there is a clear link between gay men and pedophilia. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t, I just don’t take your word for it as the final authority. Then I was demonised and called names and told by Anthony that this was not to be aired. Then I was challenged to offer proof. I have no proof and am not an ‘expert’ at all, I only question the validity of the propaganda that there is absolutely no link whatsoever between the two. I do not believe there is any proof either way, studies be damned, often they are skewed to get a desired result. Most people would tend to believe there has to be some link between gay men and pedophilia since, when men have sex with boys it is not ‘straight’ activity, is it?. By definition, men who are molesting boys are gay.
You have a very short memory Shoshana.
You clearly make a claim here that you are aware of some “studies” that talk of a “possible connection” between homosexuality and pedophilia. What are these studies that you are aware of? You are making very bold claims here that you refuse to back up with evidence.
As for your claim:
This is unacceptable and I wouldn’t be surprised if you were barred from this site for perpetuating this vile notion.
You are outright offensive.
I have read those studies in the past. They exist and anyone can find them if they want to. Just look at this one, and there are many more:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/865615/posts
Why is that offensive? To you everything is offensive, you have the thinnest skin, you are touchy about absolutely everything, there is no discussion of issues with you, you take it all so personally. You take the moral high ground whenever anyone disagrees with your assertions and propaganda. Aren’t men who have relations with boys having gay relations? They are certainly not having straight relations. Be honest about this and stop trying to pretend.
Go ahead, ban me from this site. In fact, I’m done with it, it is gotten too boring. You beat the same angry frustrated drum beat all the time….”I’m offended, you’re a homophobe…intolerant…blah blah blah…religion is oppressive….Orthodox Jews are indifferent to teens suicide……..accept 100% what I say or you are EVIL woman…blah blah blah…YAWN. It’s like talking to a religious fanatic, only you’re an atheist fanatic.
The link you posted is not research. It’s offensive hate material. You are unable to substantiate your vile hate claims with bonafide research.
You are a nasty piece of work Shoshana. You make disgusting assertions about gay people, claiming there is evidence that we are pedophiles and then you can’t back this up.
Go away and take your hate speak with you. Intelligent humans don’t need to hear your pathetic drivel.
From you that’s a compliment!
here is the Gay Report draw your own conclusions:
http://www.narth.com/docs/reporton.html
Not Queer, NARTH is a hate site. They do not publish honest, evidence based research.
That book you refer to has been comprehensively debunked on Box Turtle:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,005.htm
I really am sick of people posting hate material about gay people. Let’s see how far you’d get suggesting the same about Jews.
Michael.
Comments on this thread have now been closed because advice about desisting from hate speech has not been heeded.