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Important Information Regarding Abuse Allegations

October 11, 2013 – 11:29 am284 Comments

By Anonymous:

yeshiva2Editor’s note: This piece has been written by a respected member of the community who wishes to remain anonymous due to the acrimonious nature of the debate.

As a concerned Yeshivah-Beth Rivkah parent I called Moorabbin Police station this morning  (phone number: 9556 6565) and spoke to the Senior Constable in charge. I stated that as a very worried parent I wanted to know that my children were not at risk.

The Senior Constable said that there is no investigation into any current Yeshivah-Beth Rivkah College staff member, nor any threat to children through the Yeshivah Centre.

I stated that I had read this week’s Jewish News article and a online blog mentioned 11 known perpetrators at the Yeshivah Centre. He stated that again if children were at risk the school would be informed.

He also stated that anyone can make online accusations, often anonymously or through an organisation’s website or facebook. The police do not respond to newspaper articles or online accusations, if children are at risk they take immediate action to ensure their safety.

The Senior Constable said parents should not trust what they read in newspapers, online blogs, third party organizations or even school statements. They should call the police themselves to gain confidence in their children’s safety.

The Senior Constable’s number is 9556 6565. Call for yourself to gain comfort that your children are safe.

***

Manny Waks responds:

Firstly, well done to the parent for following this up directly with the school and subsequently with the police.

I have not divulged details of who is investigating this specific allegation (not the unit or officers involved). I am not sure who the author of this article spoke to (there is no name provided and my understanding is that there is no such thing as a Senior Constable in charge – there is only a Sergeant in charge) and the exact nature of their apparent conversation.

Let me assure you that this matter is indeed being investigated by the police. It would be absurd for anyone to believe that there is no police investigation undertaken when a victim comes forward and provides a comprehensive statement of this nature. Any victim/survivor reading this should not be swayed by the misleading information provided in this article – each and every credible allegation will be investigated.

There is very limited information that I can provide publicly and even less the police can say while a matter is under investigation. This is why Tzedek only released a very limited public comment earlier in the week (http://www.tzedek.org.au/another-alleged-melbourne-yeshivah-perpetrator-a-current-teacher/). It was the victim’s/survivor’s decision to speak to the Australian Jewish News and it was their decision to run the story. I fully support the victim’s decision to share his story. And I fully support the AJN’s decision to publish the story.

Anecdotally, I recall around two years ago when David Cyprys was under investigation a concerned member of the community (whose name would be familiar to many Galus readers) contacted a member of the police who denied there was a current investigation under way. This individual got all worked up about it at the time – including trying to attack my credibility (and making threats). The officer whom this community member spoke to was in fact the one heading this investigation. And, as they say, the rest is history.

In terms of whether this alleged perpetrator is a current danger to children, this is something that could only be assessed by a professional. No one – not even a police officer – would be in a position to state that someone who is alleged to have raped a child is no longer a danger to children without undertaking a proper assessment.

There is also a major inaccuracy in this article, which must be rectified. I never said that there are ’11 known perpetrators at the Yeshivah Centre’. Rather, this is what I wrote:

‘We [Tzedek] have repeatedly stated publicly that we are aware of around 25 alleged perpetrators who are alleged to have committed crimes within institutions roaming freely within the Jewish community. In fact, 11 of them are from the Yeshivah Centre in Melbourne (none are currently teaching at Yeshivah).’

This does not mean that there are 11 known perpetrators currently walking around Yeshivah. Many of these individuals are not even currently in Australia. The point was that allegations were made about them for abusing children while they were within the Yeshivah community and these individuals are today walking around free. But there are also a few of these 11 who are still roaming around Yeshivah. Without going into too much detail, it’s important to remember that not all the allegations were made in the context of a community setting (i.e. some are allegations of abuse within families). Also, most of them are not under active/current police investigation and some have never been under investigation at all (for a range of reasons – e.g. victims did not want to proceed with a court case, which is very common in these types of cases).

In short, the article just posted raises a number of questions and contains misleading information.

I will refrain from making any further comment on this issue. At this stage I have divulged all the information that I can. If anything changes I will provide further updates. In the meantime, I will leave the police to investigate this and other cases within our community.

Manny Waks

***

Editor’s note: I would like to thank the anonymous parent who wrote the initial post today for alerting me to R’ Smukler’s email (below). We are publishing that email with R’ Smukler’s permission.

A message from the Principal in response to the recent media

As Principal of Yeshivah College I find it most disturbing that anyone reading the Australian Jewish News or Tzedek website may be led to believe that Yeshivah College currently employs a known perpetrator of child sexual abuse. This could be no further from the truth.

We are in regular contact with the Victoria Police and the relevant authorities. The Police have made it very clear that should they believe that there is cause for concern or that we need to take action in relation to any staff member, they will contact us immediately.

The Police have unequivocally confirmed, that at present, there are no concerns about any of our staff whatsoever.

If the Police or any government agency were to make us aware of any staff member being investigated for allegations of child abuse, our school policy is clear and unequivocal; we would unhesitatingly stand them down and remove them from having any access or exposure to our children during the investigation.

We were terribly disappointed that the Australian Jewish News did not have the decency of giving Yeshivah the right of reply prior to publishing an article about an alleged staff member of our College.

It is outrageous and irresponsible for the AJN or the Tzedek advocacy group, who profess to act in the best interests of the community and the children within it, to make broad and sweeping allegations.  In doing so, they have cast suspicion on hundreds of innocent educators in circumstances when the police have confirmed there are no concerns.  This does nothing to keep children safe.

It is a pity, that instead of acknowledging and encouraging our extensive efforts in child protection,  and working together with us to ensure the safety of all our children, that Mr Manny Waks and his Tzedek organisation have instead continued to portray themselves as having a vendetta against orthodox Jewry and in particular the Yeshivah community. It is most disappointing that this vendetta also appears to be supported by the AJN.

Yeshivah, as an organisation today, can only be accused of being overly vigilant in the protection of our children – something for which we are proud.

We conclude by reassuring the community that we are absolutely committed to ensuring the safety of the most vulnerable members of the community – our children.  We prioritise child safety, with best practice in relation to staff employment policies and training, and employ effective policies to prevent, and procedures to deal with any issues should they ever arise.  We are in the forefront of student and parent education, and collaborate and work closely with the community, the Police and Government and support agencies.

Together we keep our children safe.Once again, we call upon anyone with any information about someone they reasonably believe poses a risk to our children to immediately report their concerns to the Police.Good Shabbos
Rabbi Yehoshua Smukler
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284 Comments »

  • Sceptic says:

    Finally some common sense! Thank you GA for this.

  • Steven says:

    Manny, back to you.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Sceptic says: “Thank you GA for this.”

    For publishing something by an Anonymous parent, quoting an unnamed “Senior Constable in charge” (there is no such concept of “SC in charge”, I just rang the number), on the general Moorabbin police telephone number (no extension or department was quoted, and where was Moorabbin ever mentioned anywhere till now?)?

  • Brad says:

    Newgant

    Your credibility (and identity) is shot to pieces.

    We’ve been saying what Galus posted above,for the past few days.

    And we’re the trolls, right?

    Well done Galus.

    Hope the AJN reads this blog and takes a few pointers.

    Having said that, I think the rank & file members of Tzedek ought to have a very close look at themselves and wonder whether or not they are being manipulated. Obviously they are good well meaning people, but how can any of them tolerate what’s happening within their own Daled Amot.

    Unless they are blind, deaf and dumb??

    It’s good there is an organization with Tzedeks aim, however its going to be a downhill train-wreck the way it’s going. They need clear thinking leadership, not individuals who have an agenda which may satisfy themselves but do nothing for the cause, nor for those whom they’re trying to help. Window dressing the real agendas can fool some of the people some of the time.

    Smell the roses ladies & gents….

    My prediction….?

    Keep Tzedek the way it is with the current CEO and it will be all over red-rover…

  • Brad says:

    What happened to Manny’s post?

    Manny Waks says:
    October 11, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    What a crock of rubbish!

    1. The “alleged perpetrator” supposedly under investigation cant be identified
    2. Tzedek are unwilling (unable?)to identify the police supposedly performing the investigation
    3. Written confirmation from the Yeshivah to Galus (obviously forged, ask Newgant) that they are unaware of any investigation.
    4. The police confirmed to the Yeshivah there is no current investigation (obviously another lie, ask Newgant)

    What then was the point of Tzedek publishing the article to begin with?

    What did they expect parents to do? Storm the buildings?

    What was expected of the Yeshivah? Truth drug every teacher?

    Sensation-seeking gutter journalism, that’s all it is?

    Anything to delegitimize the Yeshivah, huh?

    Why let the truth get in the way of a good story?

    Tzedek, smell the roses!!

  • Steven says:

    “remain anonymous due to the acrimonious nature of the debate.”

    I am not sure why it is acrimonious. It’s really not rocket science. Paedophiles should be in jail and not be in Yeshivah or other schoools teaching young children. Very, very simple. This is all Manny and Tzedek has been trying to do, and successfully.

    Sending them overseas to reoffend (Rabbi Kramer), turning a blind eye (David Cyprys) or pressuring victims not to testify is not an option.

    I find Rabbi Smuckler’s response offensive. Something about a pot and a kettle.

    “It is a pity, that instead of acknowledging and encouraging our extensive efforts in child protection, and working together with us to ensure the safety of all our children, that Mr Manny Waks and his Tzedek organisation have instead continued to portray themselves as having a vendetta against orthodox Jewry and in particular the Yeshivah community. It is most disappointing that this vendetta also appears to be supported by the AJN.”

  • Steven says:

    Now it seems either Manny is lying or Yeshivah is lying about a police investigation into a current Yeshivah teacher who allegedly molested a 8 year old. Stay tuned….

  • Galus Australis says:

    Brad, Manny’s comment has been incorporated into the main post.

  • Not impressed says:

    Steven,
    Unlike you I find Rabbi Smukler’s letter spot on!!
    It’s long overdue.
    Nothing will convince me that the path undertaken by Manny and his father is pure and without malice towards orthodoxy and in particular Yeshivah Centre, for other reasons.
    I happen to know who it was that contacted the Moorabbin police and if that person gave the wrong title to the sergeant it doesn’t mean that the person wasn’t given the correct information.
    For awhile I was an admirer of Manny and his Tzedek organisation.
    Now , I am simply not impressed!

  • Johnny says:

    A message from the Principal in response to the recent media

    As Principal of Yeshivah College I find it most disturbing that anyone reading the Australian Jewish News or Tzedek website may be led to believe that Yeshivah College currently employs a known perpetrator of child sexual abuse. This could be no further from the truth.

    We are in regular contact with the Victoria Police and the relevant authorities. The Police have made it very clear that should they believe that there is cause for concern or that we need to take action in relation to any staff member, they will contact us immediately. The Police have unequivocally confirmed, that at present, there are no concerns about any of our staff whatsoever.

    If the Police or any government agency were to make us aware of any staff member being investigated for allegations of child abuse, our school policy is clear and unequivocal; we would unhesitatingly stand them down and remove them from having any access or exposure to our children during the investigation.

    We were terribly disappointed that the Australian Jewish News did not have the decency of giving Yeshivah the right of reply prior to publishing an article about an alleged staff member of our College.

    It is outrageous and irresponsible for the AJN or the Tzedek advocacy group, who profess to act in the best interests of the community and the children within it, to make broad and sweeping allegations. In doing so, they have cast suspicion on hundreds of innocent educators in circumstances when the police have confirmed there are no concerns. This does nothing to keep children safe.

    It is a pity, that instead of acknowledging and encouraging our extensive efforts in child protection, and working together with us to ensure the safety of all our children, that Mr Manny Waks and his Tzedek organisation have instead continued to portray themselves as having a vendetta against orthodox Jewry and in particular the Yeshivah community. It is most disappointing that this vendetta also appears to be supported by the AJN.

    Yeshivah, as an organisation today, can only be accused of being overly vigilant in the protection of our children – something for which we are proud.

    We conclude by reassuring the community that we are absolutely committed to ensuring the safety of the most vulnerable members of the community – our children. We prioritise child safety, with best practice in relation to staff employment policies and training, and employ effective policies to prevent, and procedures to deal with any issues should they ever arise. We are in the forefront of student and parent education, and collaborate and work closely with the community, the Police and Government and support agencies. Together we keep our children safe.

    Once again, we call upon anyone with any information about someone they reasonably believe poses a risk to our children to immediately report their concerns to the Police.

    Good Shabbos

    Rabbi Yehoshua Smukler
    Principal Yeshivah – Beth Rivkah Colleges

  • Johnny says:

    by the way, it’s SMUKLER not SMUCKLER

  • Galus Australis says:

    Thanks very much for pointing out the error, Jonny. It’s been corrected.

    R’ Smukler’s email has been published as the third section of the main post.

  • kush says:

    emanuel newgant seems to have gone all quiet now that “rabbi Smukler HIMSELF” penned a response to the pathetic news media Manny has cooked up!

    I suppose your comeback will be that Rabbi Smukler is lying and you will sue him in court?!

  • kush says:

    all the posts about Rabbi Smukler by Emanuel Newgant:

    Based on the fact that in the past, a distinction has been made, by people from Yeshivah themselves, between Yeshivah Centre and Yeshivah College, who put out this statement, and does Rabbi Smukler, the principal of Yeshivah College, stand by it?

    kush mir: Does Rabbi Smukler, the principal of Yeshivah College, assert that he knows nothing of a police investigation into a current teacher? I would love an email from Smukler asserting that. Send it to the editor, and I hope she’ll forward it on to me.

    I am confident that Rabbi Smukler will not deny he knows of the police investigation, whether from the police or via other sources, although based on past experience of published comments from the Bench and by the police concerning the truthfulness and reliability of senior members of the Yeshivah Centre, who knows?

    I hope he does not go down the wrong path, as others have done, because inevitably, lies require more lies to keep the story “straight”, and very soon there is a tangled web that becomes impossible to escape.

    “freddy”, I repeat: I am confident that Rabbi Smukler will not deny he knows of the police investigation. Cut the crap.

    p.s. For anyone that has any doubts, email rabbi.smukler@yeshivahcentre.org or nechama.bendet@yeshivahcentre.org or call them on 95228222. But if they actually deny what Manny has said, please use your real name so you and/or they can be held accountable.

    Remember again, we are talking about a police investigation into a current Yeshivah Centre teacher, is something not clear here?

    Brad, I repeat: Ask Smukler, on the record.

    Ad nauseam: There is a current police investigation, Rabbi Smukler knows the target current teacher involved, and it is inconceivable that (to use the Magistrate’s words “unfathomable” if) Smukler didn’t tell his employers. Anyone denying this is either ill-informed, or telling fibs…I venture to say that if Smukler denies this in writing to the parents, someone may take court action against him.

    go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Hang On says:

    poor manny the so righteous protecter of vulnerable kids,there’s no story here ,never mind …theres bound to be more allegations at yeshivah you can bottom feed off ,Tzedek is indeed bound for failure unless wax is replaced by someone who really cares ,rather than by someone craving attention,or money

  • Steven says:

    Not Impressed

    “Nothing will convince me that the path undertaken by Manny and his father is pure and without malice towards orthodoxy and in particular Yeshivah Centre, for other reasons.”

    Worst case scenario : would you prefer Yeshivah paedophile free and sued for $100 million, or would you prefer Manny was just another silent victim?

    In the former your and my grandkids don’t end up getting raped.

    If you think all Manny wants is the money, then he could sit on his back side, do nothing and sue Yeshivah all the same, without having to fight everyone, so that no more kids get raped, like he did.

    Perhaps look at what two paedophiles managed to ‘accomplished’ all by themselves and what the alternative could have been if just one person would have caused ‘trouble’.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sex-abuse-led-to-26-suicides-says-policeman-20110729-1i4f0.html

    At the end of the day you can think what you like, as can I and it won’t make a difference. The only real difference that can be made is when past victims make statements to the police, so that there will be no future victims.

  • Alex Fein says:

    Please do not keep reposting R’ Smukler’s email. It has been posted in the main section of this article.

  • Malki Rose says:

    I have just gotten off the phone from Rabbi Smukler…

    He has stated that if Manny calls him or emails him and gives him (even in the strictest of confidence) the name of this individual in the school who is a threat to children and details the nature of the allegation.. he will WITHOUT HESITATION, SUSPEND THE EMPLOYEE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

    He awaits contact from Manny.

  • Bram Presser says:

    I admire much of what Tzeddek has achieved thus far, especially in terms of getting schools to institute proper safeguards etc and helping victims come forward to put these awful excuses for human being in jail where they belong, but there is one thing that seems odd here…

    If there was an investigation and nobody within the school had been notified, it would leave police open to being sued for negligence if the alleged perpetrator was to strike again. The school would not be liable assuming all teachers had current Working With Children checks. I may turn out to be wrong, but it just doesn’t taste 100% kosher to me in a legal sense.

    I also think that there must be a difference between the very important message of “parents ought always be vigilant about the safety of their children” and tarring an entire class of people with a single, non-specific brush.

  • Linda Himmelfarb says:

    I would like to make the following request.

    LAY OFF MANNY.

    First, to say he is portraying himself as having any sort of vendetta is in my opinion CRUEL and INACCURATE. Manny goes after criminals wherever they are. It seems that Yeshivah’s name has cropped up a lot….could this be indicative of something other than any sort of anti-Yeshivah crusade by Manny?
    I think it is appalling to besmirch the work Manny does in this way. It seems to me to be insulting and trivialising.
    Secondly, to make any sort of comment as to the amount of money being made being made by Manny…..I suggest you ask the man himself how rich his work makes him. OR NOT.

  • Steven says:

    Malki Rose :(from facebook) “This sort of game playing by the police is what is damaging to your credibility… courtesy of the police”.

    I disagree, it’s only damaging if you don’t believe what Manny is saying. He has absolutely no reason to lie and needs to remain squeeky clean. Out of the police, Yeshivah and Manny I would put Manny last on the list.

  • Not impressed says:

    Steven
    At first I was sure that what Manny and tzedek had undertaken was the pursuit of justice and to ensure that perpetrators where exposed and punished and that victims, no matter where and when were given the opportunity to have closure if possible.
    It seems to me that waks deliberately mentions the yeshivahcentre centre and some of the people connected to it every given opportunity.
    If a crime was committed in another city, school or country he will inevitably refer to the yeshiva centre and mention the names of individuals who were not the perps but may have been there at the time etc. and dealt with situation badly.
    The facts are that the centre has gone to the utmost to improve the security of the children as highlited by specialists.
    Kudos to the principal of the colleges
    I do wish manny all the best but I do not accept his ongoing pursuit of yeshivah centre bashing and that of respectable rabbis.
    Something is just not right with his MO.
    I also noted that whenever someone disagrees with him, manny becomes verbally aggressive and down right insulting.

  • Bram Presser says:

    I should add that Manny is absolutely right in asserting that when Cyprus was being investigated the police denied it. There are obviously investigative sensitivities that must be protected to ensure the best possible case is made should charges be laid.

  • Malki Rose says:

    Yes, and the “person familiar to galus readers” which Manny refers to in his response in the article above is.. myself.

    At the time that Manny issued the statement that ‘someone in the community was being investigated’, I contacted the police and asked them (the Detective heading up the investigating unit at SOCIT) if there was an investigation in the works.
    The detective flat out told me “No, there is no investigation”.
    OF COURSE I QUESTIONED MANNY ON THIS!!

    Either there was or was not an investigation.
    Only one of those statements could have been true.
    Who is one to believe? So OF COURSE I called Manny on it.

    Several weeks later they picked up and charged Cyprys.

    Until this day I have absolutely NO IDEA why the police lied about the existence of an investigation.

    But if they are doing this again and there are silly games at play where if you dont ask the right detective at the right unit all the right questions using the right codewords… then this is a) the single item which damages Manny’s claim (i.e. “there is an investigation”) and b) This shows a pretty yucky, machiavellian modus operandi for the Victoria Police which I am appalled by, whereby they feel it is appropriate to mislead the public (which in itself poses a risk for current public safety) about the existence of investigations for the benefit of their workload.

  • Malki Rose says:

    Vic Police should be able to state there is an investigation in the works, so that they are able to inform Yeshiva formally.. so that Smukler is able to stand down the individual concerned.

    Manny’s statement alludes to the predator being someone quite high up in the food chain.
    So IF this allegation is factual… then it could really only be one of 3 people. All of whom are powerful enough in the school and school community that it warrants immediate action… that includes naming, shaming and removal.. before further damage is done.

    I cannot think of a single valid reason to delay it. If there is a genuine reason to delay .. I would love to hear it/read it.

    The following 3 points are worth considering….

    1 – There is no danger of a defamation suit if the allegation is factual. (‘truth’ is a valid defense in a defamation law suit under Australian Law)

    2 – Naming the predator will more than likely cause other victims to come forward with statements, strengthening the case. If it were me, I’d feel empowered and relieved to hear that I wasnt the only one and that there are others who’ve come forward.

    3 – Parents will be able to make real, informed choices about having their boys in the presence of this man, now.. not when/if the case is investigated /heard months from now. Now they have no choices!

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Wait a minute. So Manny has not even informed Yeshiva of the the identity of this alleged paedophile?

    What is the point of all this, then? What is Yeshiva supposed to do?

  • Johnny says:

    ENOUGH! NO MORE SILENCE MANNY

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Joe and Johnny, I assume you read previous comments before posting yourself? kush says:October 11, 2013 at 2:53 pm “Ad nauseam: There is a current police investigation, Rabbi Smukler knows the target current teacher”.

    Those remain the facts, as unpleasant as you may find them, and as interesting to compare to Rabbi Smukler’s letter as they may be.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Sorry to post again without someone else in between, but I would like to remind readers of the following:
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sex-suspect-protected-20110906-1jvzw.html
    Detective Senior Constable Lisa Metcher said Cyprys was supported by ‘high-standing members of the Jewish community’ who did not say anything when the alleged offending was canvassed. ‘They failed to act in any way to protect children and the matter has been swept under the carpet,’ Senior Constable Metcher told Melbourne Magistrates Court.
    Asked on what she based this, Senior Constable Metcher said: ‘Based on the lies told to police and information that has been twisted and covered up.’

  • Not impressed says:

    Hey, one moment!
    Manny knows about a perpetrator of child abuse that is still in contact with children within a school and he hasn’t made contact with the offices of that institution to inform them of this very serious matter?
    But he does inform the media of this and makes it into a tzedek – CEO Manny heroic deed?
    Well, I don’t know about you all , but I find this as incredibly irresponsible of him, and I for one would never approach Tzedek for help.
    I would much rather be represented with a person who can work quietly effectively and responsibly.
    I think this media power thing has gone to his head!

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    “Not impressed”, I assume you read previous comments before posting yourself? kush says:October 11, 2013 at 2:53 pm “Ad nauseam: There is a current police investigation, Rabbi Smukler knows the target current teacher”.

    I would be quite happy if the editor deleted posts that repeated previous material without adding any new info, like mine here, but obviously all the others I am responding to.

    Repeating the same malicious complaints against Manny will not change the facts: Smukler knows. All apologists, please note that his letter does not deny this fact, but merely attempts to camouflage it.

  • Not impressed says:

    I really don’t care what you would be happy with, EN.
    I know of all the posts and nothing you say will convince me nor justify the FACT that Manny or anyone else from Tzedek didn’t make the call to the relevant school to inform them of a pending danger on their premises.but would rather go to the media that relishes on this sort of information.
    That is outrageous!!!
    I know who you are and I understand your wanting to defend any criticism against Manny, but you are blinded and therefore your posts are irrelevant
    YOU say what is fact and I simply don’t believe you.
    Never have , never will.
    Rabbi Smukler’s public letter clearly states that he knows of no current investigation about an individually, he states that the police have confirmed all that.
    I am happy to believe him!!
    This is my last and final response to you EN

  • united says:

    Emanuel newgant,

    Not sure if you read all the comments. Kush merely quotes YOU in his comment in totally discrediting you and your malicious claims against rabbi smukler. YOU are the only one to claim that rabbi smukler knows anything. And of course manny who (as pointed out) knows but doesn’t bother informing the institution.

    You’re either unintelligent or simply an idiot (as your friend from MN likes to call people)

    Either way, you keep regurgitating your crap over and over without providing any proof of your statements and without answering and of the questions posed to you.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Of course he was quoting me, but since you guys are a little slow, I’ll requote myself if you would prefer: “Ad nauseam: There is a current police investigation, Rabbi Smukler knows the target current teacher.”

    Smukler has not denied this anywhere in his letter. If you can prove otherwise, please show where.

    Editor, I would really love you to intervene and set guidelines for reposting trash.

  • Steven says:

    A community watch group has reported a fire on a hill in Southern Chelm and told those living there to take care. There is a farm on that hill housing many farm animals especially lambs. The farmer did not want to believe the reports and refused to take action to protect the lambs until the farmer heard the news directly from the fire brigade or even the community watch group and the farmer patiently waited for the phone call. Police said the farmer and 40 lambs were incinerated and wonder why he didn’t call the fire brigade himself to verify the story so he could take action.

  • Steven says:

    Sorry I got the report wrong. Last line should have been ‘why he didn’t call the community watch himself to verify the story so he could take action.’

  • kush says:

    United,
    Thank you for pointing out the obvious! Emanuel seems to be the illiterate idiot in this case.

    Emanuel Newgant,

    You are the idiot in this case. If anyone should be edited, it is you who is reapeating and requoting crap and trash.

  • Not impressed says:

    Amen to Steven and Kush

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Steven, your analogy doesn’t work. If there were a fire then it would be obvious to everyone. A claim that there is a paedophile working at Yeshiva doesn’t help anyone, because nobody knows who it allegedly is. If Manny or his father are sure of their facts then why not identify the individual concerned? There’s no current court case, so the matter is not sub judice. I’m not a big fan of Derryn Hinch, but at least he named people he thought were a threat to the community.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Steven, last line should read “Police said the farmer and 40 lambs were incinerated and wonder why he didn’t take action.”

  • Please do not discuss moderation policy in thread.

    Please refrain from any off topic comments or personal remarks about other commenters.

    Commenters who do not comply will be suspended for 24 hours.

  • kush says:

    emanuel,

    neither you nor your son have answered any of the questions raised in the past 48 hours?!

  • kush says:

    one more thing: (should have been included above)

    You claimed last week that Rabbi Smukler would never sign a letter as he would then be sued in court etc.

    If what you are saying is true, then why don’t you take him to court and sue him?

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    If Waks was really concerned with the safety of youngsters he would have gone straight to the school with the allegation and demanded they step down the perpetrator.
    Why is he delaying? Hasn’t given a reason, has he?
    Couldn’t be for the safety of the children could it?
    There’s nothing ‘righteous’ about that at all.
    I think it is clear why he has released this media statement like this

    stage 1 ) create media feeding frenzy and gain a following where everyone is demanding that the predator be stepped down.

    stage 2) this will ensure that when Waks decides in his infinite wisdom that its time to release the name everyone will believe it immediately even without a police investigation and even without any kind of due judicial process.

    All that is required is for the statement to be made, in two carefully timed, dramatic parts and then the trial by media will create the desired effect.

    What is sad is that nobody would ever think to call Manny on this.
    Nobody has thought to ask him why he hasn’t called for the immediate removal of this alleged perp.
    Nobody has thought to ask why he has not released the name, but is happy to name the school.

    The rat is beyond smelling.
    And I think it’s time everyone saw through what he is doing.

    There is no police investigation. There is no perp. The claim is completely fabricated (by a highly non-credible witness) and the senior person he is about to name has never done anything to anyone.

    I only hope that the community have enough sense to ask all the right questions and not just accept things as gospel because they came out of the mouth of Mr Waks.

  • Sceptic says:

    This is all starting to become a bit hysterical and personal and the moderator’s frustration is justified.

    There can be no discussion and positive outcome if the Tzedek “side” of this debate automatically assumes that the actions of the board and leaders of Yeshivah over 20 years ago have not changed (That these actions reflected the feeling and behaviour of society in general at that time is a whole other discussion). It is quite obvious to parents of children at YBR that Rabbi Smukler is working tirelessly to ensure the safety of the children. To deny this without any proof is to deny reality.

    Nothing can be gained from continuously denigrating the leadership of the Yeshivah Centre and YBR Colleges.

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    Consider the McMartin Pre-school trials.
    Hundreds of false allegations. (yes, it is always possible that they are all false)
    A very paranoid and mentally unwelll claimant with a longstanding vendetta against the school.

    Or there’s this one in France,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial

    Nobody wants to believe that sexual abuse can happen in their community, but whats more, nobody wants to believe that sexual abuse claims of such magnitude could ever be fabricated.
    (i.e. Why would someone make something that up? why would so many people make allegations?)

    But the bigger question.

    Why would Waks send his young boys to yeshiva in 2008 and 2009?
    Doesn’t sound like he thought the place was dangerous.

  • Reallity Check says:

    So many experts and would be detectives responding to this blog.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    There is a current police investigation.

    Rabbi Smukler knows the target teacher, currently teaching in Yeshivah College.

    Sceptic writing “Nothing can be gained from continuously denigrating the leadership of the Yeshivah Centre and YBR Colleges.” is interesting: they just may stop being deceptive. Also he may be interested to initiate the process, where he and others stop denigrating Tzedek and Manny Waks.

  • yeshivah says:

    WHAT????

    Manny Waks sent his own children to Yeshivah in 2008 and 2009?

  • Sceptic says:

    EN (or is that ZW) I don’t see where I am denigrating Tzedek or Manny Waks. You, on the contrary, have just called R’ Smukler a liar based on no facts whatsoever.

  • yeshivah says:

    Emanuel,

    which “police” department?

    the station house on abeckett st?

  • yeshivah says:

    Emanuel,

    It has been pointed out by previous commenters that you claimed Rabbi Smukler would be liable for court action.

    Where is the court action?

    Or did you suddenly change your line of attack?

  • yeshivah says:

    If what “tzedek my foot” claims is true, I find it despicable that the ceo of tzedek would allow his own children to attend a school with such a dangerous environment! A school which covers crimes and protects criminals! Hypocrisy at its height!
    Unless during the years of 2008 and 2009 the school was under different management but then reverted back to the old management later on!

  • Not impressed says:

    Does Tzedek deal with cases of sexual abuse only or do they give the same support to child abuse of any kind.?

  • RC – it appears from the flow of comments on this article that the shoe is on the other foot this time. Instead of so-called “apologists” being pounced upon by vigilantes who have already determined the guilt of an entire community , one sockpuppet is coming to the defence of Manny & Tzedek, and running out of excuses.

    The self-appointed advocates for child protection seem to have lost their way, and in this case have done the equivalent of shouting “fire” in a crowded theatre, then quietly walking out muttering “there is nothing more I can say on this”.

  • Steven says:

    David, was that sarcastic?

  • Brad says:

    And get this crap from Mannys speech 2009

    Bear in mind, on other occasions he claimed to have gone off the deep end due to having seen Cyprys on guard duty outside the Yeshivah in 2000 Manny complained to Rabbi Groner in 2000 (so he says), then sends his kids to the same school he claims never did anything about his and other alleged victims.

    Weird.

    I can only guess Manny’s kids followed in the family tradition…….no school fees, hey Newgant?

    So, what happened between 2009 when he was singing the Habad praises, and 2011 when he went public?

    Did the school ask for fees? Did that set him off on his rabid anti-Yeshivah crusade?

    And then this bulltish in 2009
    http://www.capitaljewishforum.org/speech-parliament-of-the-worlds-religions-speech.html

    He says… My outlook on Habad nowadays is very different to what it was after I left the movement – I now very much respect and admire Habad and the wonderful work it carries out. I very much value and promote the concept of “Jewish continuity”. I have come to appreciate ultra-Orthodox Judaism, especially Habad, for their significant contribution in this area”.

    Then goes on to say…. “In recent years I have been very fortunate to be heavily involved in the broader Jewish community both as a professional and a layperson, including taking leadership positions. I have often utilised my contacts within the Habad community, where many still consider me as “one of them”, for broader community matters”.

    yeah, as if anyone is Habad considered him as “one of them”. That was just crap for his non-Jewish audience.

    He then goes on to say…. There is no simple reason why I have abandoned my ultra-Orthodox lifestyle – in truth there are a range of factors. However, one major issue I have with this lifestyle is that I find it difficult to accept that G-d really cares whether or not I fast on Yom Kippur (our day of atonement); switch a light on the Sabbath; grow my beard; put on my right shoe before my left shoe; and take on a range of other seemingly meaningless traditions and customs – interestingly, many of which are debated and done differently within the ultra-Orthodox community itself.”

    Not a peep about his sexual victimization…not a word!

    And check out what his one major issue was…..

    I’m aware some members of the Tzedek board are beginning to feel that they are being used as pawns, manipulated by a “wanna-be somebody”. Manipulated is the more correct term. The aims of Tzedek are good and noble, but let me tell you the road to hell is paved with good intentions and this is one of them.

    Manny is unfortunately damaged goods. His credibility is shot to pieces. His personal vendetta has infected the good people on the committee who are now nothing more than Useful Idiots.

    But it’s not too late. Continue with your charter, but elect a CEO whom the community respects and in turn he/she respects the community.

    Tzedek is the monkey on the Yeshivah’s back….a soft target so to speak. Manny’s holy grail will bury the lot of you if he is allowed to continue.

    We parents at the Yeshivah trust Rabbi Smukler. The past cannot be undone, but the present and future are in Rabbi smukler’s good hands. We believe our children are safe, if not safer there than any other school.

    Tzedek, if you are aware of someone who fits the claims made by Manny, speak up. Name please!

    Enough! No more silence, hypocrites?

  • Johnny says:

    HEAR HEAR

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    From the vitriol, it must be biting.

    There is a current police investigation.

    Rabbi Smukler knows the target teacher, currently teaching in Yeshivah College.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Those evil self appointed advocates of child protection, and the virtuous protectors of institutions who harbour the righteous child sex offenders. I can feel the Messiah just about to knock on your door David Werdiger.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Has the Royal Commission into Child Sex Abuse called David Werdiger and Brad to give evidence?

  • Sceptic says:

    and this site used to be the one to come to for intelligent and well reasoned discussion…

  • Reality Check, your second last comment was facetious and content free. Your account will be suspended for 24 hours.

    Brad, there is unnecessary personal attack in your last comment – particularly with regards to the school fees issue. Your account will also be suspended for 24 hours.

  • Everyone else:

    This is not a footy game. You are not barracking for teams.

    Children have been raped.

    This is not the place to settle scores or exercise wit at the expense of opponents.

    None of us know what’s really going on at the moment.

    Hopefully more information will come to light soon that might bring some resolution to this horrific mess.

    Don’t use Galus to insult each other.

    Galus is the space where information – in black and white, set down in writing, beyond the ephemera of the Shabbes rumour mill – can be exchanged and in which ideas can be debated.

    Insults and cruelty are not ideas.

    They do not edify us as Jews. They are sores to pick at and make bleed.

    This story is fundamentally about the suffering of our most vulnerable.

    Both sides: stop cheapening that suffering now.

    Suspension of your accounts is the alternative.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Galus: “None of us know what’s really going on at the moment.”

    That is incorrect. Some do, some pretend to, some pretend not to, and some really don’t.

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    Galus Australis,
    “this story is…about the suffering of our most vulnerable”
    It might be worth considering that no vulnerable person has been made to suffer and that this claim is entirely fictitious.
    Just because someone makes the claim in black & white doesn’t make it the truth.
    Sometimes the innocent & vulnerable are those who are falsely accused.
    Just consider it for a moment please.

  • Steven – no, not sarcastic.

    RC and others – the world is not a binary one where anyone who dares question the Gospel According to Manny is automatically a “paedophile protector”. No advocacy group (and indeed any organisation) is above scrutiny. While Tzedek and Manny have achieved positives in raising awareness of child abuse and helping bring offenders to justice, there have been a number of blunders along the way.

    It’s very easy to throw mud at people and cast long bows that tarnish entire communities without justification. I’m all in favour of due process to ensure perpetrators are brought to justice. This must be done responsibly, especially within a small & close-knit community like ours.

    Remember the old Yiddish adage: “a fool listens to half a story”.

  • Daniel Levy says:

    Remember the old Yiddish adage: “Don’t bully rape victims.”

  • Alex Fein says:

    Tzedek My Foot: No this topic is not specifically about one claim.

    This story is part of a broader narrative of rape and abuse perpetrated at Yeshivah.

    Whatever one thinks of this particular story, it does not in any way diminish the horror and suffering caused by Kramer and Cyprys and possibly others.

    Yeshivah did not address the issues appropriately at the time.

    Little boys’ lives were ruined.

    Whatever the situation now, games of one upmanship on this forum show appalling insensitivity considering the gravity of the subject.

    ***
    Emanual Newgant, from the information currently in the public domain, it most certainly seems like no one has any idea of what’s really going on.

    Simply *saying* that you do does not in any way change that.

  • Steven says:

    Alex, Malki and others at GA are good people trying to do the right thing, but I think you are being a bit naive or trying too hard to stay diplomatically polite.

    “This story is part of a broader narrative of rape and abuse perpetrated at Yeshivah.” I think the main narrative is the cover up and hence the perpetuation of paedophilia in Yeshivah. Ask Manny what hurts him more TODAY, having been raped or the cover-up?.

    “Yeshivah did not address the issues appropriately at the time.” Euphamism much? Allowing Kramer to rape overseas, employing Cyprys, etc is a bit more than ‘not appropriate’.

    Do you know that NO students have ever received any communication or letters from Yeshivah apologising for Kramer, or offering councelling etc? Why not?

    We all agree that Yeshivah is doing it’s best NOW to stop assaults. It’s how they are handling events of the past that causes grief to many people and allows rapists to continue to rape other children.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Alex, you write: “from the information currently in the public domain, it most certainly seems like no one has any idea of what’s really going on.”

    I wrote above “That is incorrect. Some do, some pretend to, some pretend not to, and some really don’t.”; that remains an accurate description of the state of play.

    I have claimed all along, and actually know, that Rabbi Smukler has known about this investigation, including the identity of the alleged perpetrator, for quite a while. In spite of all the fluff written above by some, Smukler is very careful in his statement not to deny that he knows, he merely denies that the police have informed him.

    Again, I would like to remind you and other readers of the following, as I wrote above:
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sex-suspect-protected-20110906-1jvzw.html
    Detective Senior Constable Lisa Metcher said Cyprys was supported by ‘high-standing members of the Jewish community’ who did not say anything when the alleged offending was canvassed. ‘They failed to act in any way to protect children and the matter has been swept under the carpet,’ Senior Constable Metcher told Melbourne Magistrates Court.
    Asked on what she based this, Senior Constable Metcher said: ‘Based on the lies told to police and information that has been twisted and covered up.’

    The leadership in Yeshivah Centre has “form” (history) on this, and the behaviour discussed in this post is a clear example that what the police complain about above is alive and well.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    P.S. The two comments at the bottom from “Another” at http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/10/chabad-principal-responds-to-new-child-sex-abuse-claim-567.html on this topic are worth reading.

  • Nachi says:

    ZW/EN/Steve whichever you are today, you could at least make public which department, station or officer of the police is investigating this alleged complaint without breaching the defamation laws.
    Have you personally been in contact with the police to confirm that they are investigating?

  • Steven says:

    Nachi, I only post here under Steven, so I am offended by your comment. Off to the naughty corner for 24 hours.

  • Galus Australis says:

    Galus doesn’t allow multiple pseuds.

    Steve is not a multiple pseud.

    Please do not speculate about identities in thread. If you suspect someone of using multiple pseuds, contact the editor.

    Any further mention of identities will result in a 24 hour suspension.

  • TheSadducee says:

    A few thoughts re. Principal’s reply –

    Not particularly impressed with some of the “legalese” used here.

    1. note the use of “known perpetrator”. The perpetrator is alleged, not known i.e. hasn’t been convicted, so I’m not sure why that particular terminology has been used?

    2. note also “alleged staff member” – again unusual language which can mean a number of things depending on the context. Is a staff member a teacher? A cleaner? A security guard?

    I raise the point about alleged staff member because a few paras down the author talks about “educators” i.e. most likely teachers. I’m not certain though if the school has hundreds of these or not?

    3. I also object to the comment about Manny, Tzedek and the way they are portrayed in relation to orthodox Jewry eg:

    “Mr Manny Waks and his Tzedek organisation have instead continued to portray themselves as having a vendetta against orthodox Jewry…”

    which is very carefully phrased to AVOID actually saying that he/the org has a vendetta – which is a very strong claim if it had been made.

    I’m also not impressed that they also try to use the fig-leaf of orthodox Jewry to hide behind – Manny’s work is not an attack on orthodox Jewry – point out where he is attacking orthodox Jewish beliefs, but rather addressing child abuse issues within Jewish organisations, one of which is theirs.

    Trying to suggest that Manny is motivated by anti-orthodox Jewish feelings requires proof, not assertion, and would be strange considering that his wife is orthodox herself in private observance.

  • Not Impressed says:

    Mr Sadducee
    You protest and object too much.
    The truth is coming out, and it won’t be from your corner.

  • Nachi says:

    Mr S, a common tactic to divert attention or transference is to refer to spelling, grammar or syntax and not address issues. Check the AJN report that refers to “long standing employee” who “remains in close contact” and was “reported this week”.
    This is what is being responded to.
    While Manny & Daddy Dearest refer to “sometime ago allegations were made”, “current teacher”.
    These discrepancies did impress you.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    I’m not a lawyer, but my understanding is that truth is now a good defence against charges of defamation. That being the case, why is Manny’s team dancing around what Rabbi Smukler did, does, or ought to know; or what precise title a police officer who may not be telling the truth would have said? Just say “An alleged victim claims Rabbi Bill Bloggoffsky interfered with him in Yeshiva Shul”. If Manny’s sure of his facts then Rabbi Bloggoffsky is unlikely to risk suing him (and would lose if he tried); and just think of the potential victims who might be spared. If Manny’s not willing to do this then why is he putting us through this farcical “I know something you don’t know, neener neener” nonsense.

  • TheSadducee says:

    @Nachi

    I can’t speak for anyone else here but I have to say that if the principal of a school in 21st century Melbourne cannot write an articulate and accurate public statement then I wouldn’t be sending my children there.

    That aside, there is no desire to ignore any issues at hand, rather this is merely my own queries to certain points of the statement in question.

    I also do not, unlike yourself, dismiss the statement’s own claim to be addressing both the AJN and Tzedek statement.

    As to Waks pere and fils’ comments – there is no inherent inconsistency to stating that allegations were made some time ago and that they applied to a current teacher. They may be a factual error, but not an inconsistent statement.

    Incidentally, why don’t you address some of my queries? They are not motivated by malice but rather by a genuine uneasiness.

    @Not Impressed

    What corner do you think I come from? It is extremely unlikely that you know me personally so you can only assume what my views are, true? And it would be grossly unfair to assume my views on a topic based on my queries on one public statement to date.

    I have objected to some points in the public statement – some of the phrases are ambiguous (probably deliberately so) and one is particularly objectionable – i.e. Manny’s implied vendetta against orthodox Jewry.

    Similarly to Nachi, do you have any views on my queries?

    I notice in 70+ comments that these issues have hardly been addressed at all which is odd to me.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    TheSadducee: Just get Rabbi Smukler to answer the following questions:

    1. Does he know that there is a current police investigation.

    2. Does he know the name of the target teacher, currently teaching in Yeshivah College.

    3. Does he know that the alleged perpetrator is employed as a teacher, not a cleaner, and is an ordained Rabbi.

    4. Can he assure us that Yeshivah Centre will not attempt to remove the person’s ordination ex post facto, as was done with Kramer when he pleaded guilty.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Again, this is no witch hunt or whatever. It’s all about protecting our children and bringing to justice those who so badly hunt and damaged our innocent ones in the past.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Emanuel Newgant, why should anyone be interested in those questions? Surely the issue is: whom do you claim to be the perpetrator of the alleged acts? If you really do know the name of a paedophile working at Yeshivah, why won’t you say who it is?

  • kush says:

    Funny how Emanuel Newgant demands answers but after being exposed refuses and avoids answering the questions posed to him!

    Is the rule that: “Please do not speculate about identities in thread”, apply if one actually “knows” the identity of that person (as EN/ZW keeps claiming that “he” knows what the rest of the world doesn’t)???

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Joe: Parents should be very interested, because if the leaders of Yeshivah Centre are still being deceptive about CSA, then in the words of Another | October 13, 2013 at 12:40 AM on failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/10/chabad-principal-responds-to-new-child-sex-abuse-claim-567.html
    “They also have to make the Yeshivah community a safe place for adults to freely speak up about and seek justice for and acknowledgement of past wrongs…”
    “(The) community will never be a safe place…as long as its rabbinic and lay leadership is characterised by behaviour such as…”
    Etc etc (No, I am not “Another” and don’t know who he is)

  • Nachi says:

    EN time for you to answer questions, if you demand answers from others.
    Which department, station or officer of the police is investigating.
    Have you personally been in contact with the police to confirm your allegations.

  • Kush and others: cease immediately with the speculations about Emanuel Newgant’s real identity.

    Non-compliance will result in a week’s suspension.

    Non-compliance also includes any discussion of this instruction.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Emanuel, surely the whole point of Manny’s statement was to warn parents about a risk to their children. I don’t think my kids are in immediate danger of succumbing to cognitive dissonance; the actual risk you’re alleging is a physical one, right? So why are you and Manny letting them remain in danger? You can make them safe from this alleged threat by just giving us a name. Why aren’t you doing it?

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    There is no point ringing police stations or continually nagging ZW for the name of it…

    If anyone wants to knnow once and for all if there is any kind of investigation underway you should contact the SANO Taskforce which was set up to deal with matters of sexual assault emanating from the Parliamentary Inquiry and Royal Commission.

    Reach them at sanotaskforce@police.vic.gov.au

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Joe, you ask “Why aren’t you doing it?”. As I have said from moment zero, if you are really interested, ask Rabbi Smukler. It’s surely his job to tell you, if it’s anyone’s job. After all, he does say in his letter “Together we keep our children safe.”

    But remember when asking him, to ask the questions “correctly”, so as to avoid evasive answers. I repeat what I wrote above:

    “Just get Rabbi Smukler to answer the following questions:

    1. Does he know that there is a current police investigation.

    2. Does he know the name of the target teacher, currently teaching in Yeshivah College.

    3. Does he know that the alleged perpetrator is employed as a teacher, not a cleaner, and is an ordained Rabbi.

    4. Can he assure us that Yeshivah Centre will not attempt to remove the person’s ordination ex post facto, as was done with Kramer when he pleaded guilty.”

    Hint: the correct answer to the first 3 questions is, and to the last question should be, “yes”.

    If you are not really interested and don’t wish to ask him, then please stop asking me.

  • Emanuel, you are repeating yourself.

    Please do not do this again or a suspension will ensue.

    That goes for everyone else here. Unless you have something new to contribute, do not comment.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    I share your frustration. With respect, next time Manny Waks wants to use your website as an outlet you might demand a bit more from him. This whole episode has been a waste of time.

  • Steven says:

    Joe, you are not supposed to comment unless you have something to contribute.

    I think everyone has repeated themselves 10 times. Now we have to play the waiting game.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Will there be any consequences for the YC trolls above when Manny is proved correct?

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    EN / Steven why is this about “waiting games”, and Manny being “proven correct” and semantics, word games, asking sneaky questions, evading real answers and the “target teacher”

    What about keeping the kids at Yeshiva safe?

    It’s been said ad nauseum that there is no reason not to disclose the identity of the suspect.

    In fact, if Waks really thought he was a danger to children surely he would have identified him.

    So what is now clear to the community is that there are only two possibilities

    The alleged individual is not a predator & not dangerous

    or

    Waks has no regard for the safety of the Yeshiva students

    There’s no other possibility that makes any kind of sense or else he would have stated his name long ago.

    Not sure what “waiting game” you’re referring to, but yourself and Waks appear to be the only ones playing it.

    What you are both waiting for remains to be seen.

    But it is extremely discrediting and manipulative of you both to be playing any games (‘waiting’ or otherwise) when people’s lives are at stake.

  • Steven says:

    I meant we have to wait until the police investigate, during which time they could be telling Manny not to say anything. I don’t think the police are really going to listen to anonymous amateurs demanding action.

  • Tzedek my foot says:

    You know full well that no police person has told Waks to stay shtum.

    I’ve my own connections to the SANO Taskforce (and the law itself) and they never ask such things. The level of disclosure is purely a matter for individual victims own discretion.

    Neither Victoria Police, the Royal Commission nor any law requires that Waks withhold the name of the alleged predator.

    Furthermore and importantly, if the Police felt that there was a dangerous individual at the school they would not hesitate in removing them immediately, (And would probably have already contacted the Department of Human Services to assist) and would have contacted the school to stand down the individual as soon as the allegation was made, pending further investigation.

    Police never do a “wait and see”” with public safety, especially as far as children are concerned.

    This is a Waks-manufactured device for generating public interest and intrigue, and it is shameful that he chooses creating public intrigue and folklore around his own name rather than protecting the children in Yeshiva.

    Every parent in the community is concerned but are being sold this poppycock that there is some kind of valid reason he cannot disclose this deadly man’s name. A man seemingly so dangerous that it merits hanging Yeshiva College from the public gallows for failing to act or speak up… but not dangerous enough to keep Waks’ own children from attending the college.

    Waks is not waiting for the conclusion of a Police investigation to be able to name the individual. He’ll be naming the individual shortly, when it suits him and when all his ducks are in a row.

  • Kadimah says:

    Editor: Do not use multiple pseuds. You have also been posting under the name, “Not Impressed.” Please use your original moniker. Failure to comply will result in suspension of your account

    Time to change the topic or end it.
    This has become a forum that gives far too much attention to a sensitive issue which is being handled in a very insensitive way.
    ZW and MW use this site, GA, to ensure that they are engaged and that they are the focal point.
    The legitimate concern for the children in our schools and elsewhere has been pushed aside and it’s all about ZW and MW responding to expressions of doubts regarding their intentions and their methods.
    I have no doubts about that, but am getting tired of the repetition.
    Aren’t you?

  • Not Impressed says:

    Dear Editor.
    Kadimah means ” move forward…. which you did .
    Thanks.

  • Johnny says:

    Tzedek’s latest post reads:

    A new victim has just contacted us regarding another alleged perpetrator. There are at least two alleged victims in this recent case. It’s the first time the young victim has disclosed this information. We hope that in due course a formal police statement will be made. At this stage we won’t name the Melbourne institution involved.

    Enough! No more silence.
    _________________________

    It must not be Yeshivah – they’re the only ones worth naming, right MW? EN?

  • Steven says:

    From Manny’s facebook

    “A new victim has just contacted us regarding another alleged perpetrator. There are at least two alleged victims in this recent case. It’s the first time the young victim has disclosed this information. We hope that in due course a formal police statement will be made. At this stage we won’t name the Melbourne institution involved.

    Enough! No more silence.”

    I wish strength to all victims who are coming forward to get paedophiles off the street to stop them from re-offending.

    (People need to remember who the baddies are, and it’s not the victims or Manny.

  • Steven says:

    Editor: Do not discuss moderation policy in thread.

  • Esther says:

    Actually Manny has now seems to have removed that new “tidbit”. Interesting.

  • Esther – it’s ironic that someone who campaigns against cover-ups has made a habit of making controversial statements and discussions magically disappear from his Facebook page. Fortunately, there are people who save these things before they go missing.

    Note: am not suggesting that cover-ups have not happened.

  • Brad says:

    Newgant

    Care to explain why it was pulled?

    Hmmm, he seems to have all the “inside” goss on everything else, yet is so shtum on this little Houdini mystery. Oh well, so much for Enough. No more silence!

    The silence is deafening I’d say!

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    http://www.jewishnews.net.au/yeshivah-investigation-ramps-up/32840

    Whoops! Now where are all the trolls when you really need them?

  • Brad says:

    And of course Newgant dodges the question. Why did Tzedek remove the post
    A new victim has just contacted us regarding another alleged perpetrator. There are at least two alleged victims in this recent case. It’s the first time the young victim has disclosed this information. We hope that in due course a formal police statement will be made. At this stage we won’t name the Melbourne institution involved.

    Enough! No more silence.

    Right, no more silence. ROFLMHO

    By the way Newgant missed the opportunity to refer Galus readers to Manny’s proxy-rag Failed Messiah. You’re slipping. Go for it.

    _________________________

  • kush says:

    Newgant,

    does your friend who gives children lollies in shul have a working with children check?

  • Joe in Australia says:

    It’s not really fair to criticise Manny both for making tendentious and self-serving posts on his Facebook page, and also for taking them down.

  • kush says:

    Dear parents,

    We are disappointed that Tzedek and the AJN have chosen to continue their campaign targeting Yeshivah. Sexual abuse of children is too serious an issue to be treated in such an irresponsible manner.

    We would like to reassure our school and broader community that we are in close contact with the Police who have reiterated again in the strongest possible terms that there is absolutely no basis for concern whatsoever in relation to any of our current staff members. The Police have complemented us on our exemplary child protection policies and procedures. I have previously stated, and confirm again, that I will stand down any staff member, without hesitation, who is being investigated by the Police or who poses a risk to our children.

    Our school community today can be very proud of all we are doing to keep our children safe. At Yeshivah, we are taking a leading role by prioritising child safety, providing training programs and ensuring effective policies to prevent and procedures to deal with issues should they arise.

    We have a wonderful school community and I thank you all for your support.

    Rabbi Yehoshua Smukler
    Principal Yeshivah – Beth Rivkah Colleges

  • Sceptic says:

    Well that sounds like a strong and unequivocal statement to me. I for one am happy to have my chidren in YBR.

  • Not Impressed says:

    OK Manny, it’s time to take a step back and concentrate on how to help the victims and not to fabricate accusation against people against whom you and your dad do so in such a venomous manner.
    Enough is enough!
    And furthermore editor: potentially defamatory material removed
    your credibility is waning rapidly, and if your initial intentions were noble then more is the pity.
    I and a growing number of people are really not impressed.

  • Polygraph4Manny says:

    Even those of us on the other side of the ocean are seeing right through this, Menachem.
    We get it mate. You hate (name removed), you are still in pain from (potentially defamatory material removed).
    So you reckon framing (name removed) and destroying Yeshiva will finally make (name removed) love you?
    Nobody is going to buy it buddy. No matter how much anti-Yeshiva hype you manufacture. Even the Police aren’t biting, that’s why there ain’t no investigation.
    (name removed) is a good man, probably one of the best and has given his life to helping young Jewish boys and his community, not raping them.
    (potentially defamatory material removed).

    You would do well to become a silent Tzaddik like (name removed). Instead of telling every bit of media that will listen what a ‘community leader’ you are and conning good people into sitting on pretend boards with you while you lead them down this path of your vendetta.

    ‘Emor Me’at V’aseh Harbeh’

    But you mate, all talk and all destruction.
    Taking good folk down, destroying their lives for your own gain.

    Everyone who has ever known this man is going to be by his side, because we can all see what you are trying to do.
    And your lies are going to stop.

  • Not Impressed says:

    The truth is surfacing and finally people are getting wise to what is really going on.
    Evil people need too be eradicated, that’s for sure.
    And while perpetrators of heinous crimes are being put behind bars, those who try to defame honest and hardworking individuals and destroy institutions that have educated 1000’s of children over the years by giving them the education that their parents couldn’t, will suffer the consequences.
    The Jewish people have had the likes of Amalek and Haman in the past, They have survived and the fate of the enemy was a bitter one.
    Beware, I say, beware !!
    There is an option…..
    Repent!!!!!

  • Jenny says:

    I find it very difficult to understand why people’s first response to these claims is to bully and attack those who have been abused, especially since it’s clear that in the past such claims have been initially denied by police, completely refuted by the community, and have yet turned out to be true – and much much worse than originally thought.
    I say this as an outsider to the Orthodox world (I’m Masorti), an as someone who doesn’t really understand the ins outs of the Yeshivah.
    But why wouldn’t your first response be to be really concerned and worried that the claims were true, not to attack people for making them? Previous form indicates that they might be true.

    I’ve only just read this thread after reading the AJN’s coverage of this business, which very strongly claims, in the face of repeated denials from The Yeshiva, that it has made contact with the victims who are pursuing the matter and that the police are indeed involved. Shouldn’t that alone mean that perhaps people should wait a month or so and see what happens? Because there is no denying that Tdzedek has been on the money before. Why such hostility to it? It’s clear that there has been a significant problem with child abuse in the community, there can be no denying it. The comments on this thread make so many of you (and I know no-one on this thread myself) sound like the worst sort of Catholic priests.

    The fact that there has been child abuse, and a concerted campaign to cover it, up within the Orthodox community doesn’t make me think that the whole Orthodox community is corrupt or bad or diseased, or anything like that. It just makes me think that it, like many smaller, relatively closed communities, have developed a method of governance which inhibits dealings outside the closed community doors. It is not exceptional in this, and that can and will be fixed. I know that child abuse isn’t an integral part of being Orthodox, and I honestly don’t think that very many people do.

    But I do think that those people who are really attacking the victims here, and the organisation who is trying to advocate for them should take a hard look at themselves. It isn’t just the child abuse which brings the community into disrepute, since many communities have that problem (not that that makes it ok in any way) – it’s people who respond to it like you do.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Well said Jenny, those in the Chabad community who attack the informers and victims while defend the institution for harbouring them only harms the institutions they are defending. As you say, after all the denials and defences, the perpetrators get caught. But is does not matter which congregation you belong to, all people should be on the side of catching these vile criminals to protect our children

  • Please be advised: Any further reference to the identity of the accused or the inner workings of the Waks family are potentially defamatory and will result in suspension of accounts.

  • Jenny says:

    huh? I don’t think I mentioned either of those things.

  • Jenny, the comment wasn’t directed at you.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Galus Australis, are you saying that my comment was out of line because I mentioned Chabad? Your photo for the article has the Yeshivah College, which is Chabad.

  • Sceptic says:

    It is good to hear a reasoned response from someone like Jenny who is outside the Yeshivah community.

    Jenny, many of us who have children in Yeshivah and Beth Rivkah Colleges were shocked and concerned to be informed via Tzedek that there is a molester on the loose in our school. When the various heads of school were contacted it was found that they were no more informed that we were. I think that much of the frustration we feel with Tzedek is that it appears to have an agenda to “take down” Yeshivah. If Tzedek was a responsible organisation surely their first act would have been to contact the school to let them know of these accusations. What they in fact did was go straight to the press in order (apparently) to gain publicity for their CEO and his organisation.

    For those associated with the Yeshivah community it appears that Manny Waks never misses an opportunity to condem the community and the colleges. In fact the new school leadership is proactive in its efforts to ensure the safety of the children. Their concern that past mistakes will not be repeated is obvious to any impartial observer.
    Unfortunately, the perception of Manny Waks’ agenda against Yeshivah tends to taint anything he says – hence the appearance that many commenters on this issue are in fact attacking the victim. That this came about is solely the responsibility of Tzedek and Manny Waks and he needs to take responsibility for his words.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Sceptic says: October 20, 2013 at 1:50 pm
    “Unfortunately, the perception of Manny Waks’ agenda against Yeshivah tends to taint anything he says”

    Unfortunately, the perception of Yeshivah Centre’s agenda against Manny Waks, his family, other victims, and their families, as well as their track-record of coverup, past and present etc, tends to taint everything they say.

  • Sceptic says:

    EN/ZW/MW – just because you keep repeating the same drivel doesn’t make it correct.
    As I said above, most of us – including the school leadership at YBR – are truly concerned about the victims and ensuring the deeds of the past are not repeated. We are not using the victims as a tool of revenge.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Sceptic, “just because you keep repeating the same drivel doesn’t make it correct”. Too true.

    But the quote of the week has to be: “most of us – including the school leadership at YBR – are truly concerned about the victims”. Get someone apart from a Yeshivah Centre troll to agree to that statement.

  • Not Impressed says:

    There we go again.
    EN is at it again! I really suggest that he be ignored.
    Jenny, You are right in what you state, But, allow me to clarify something to you.
    Currently, and I stress, currently, there is no one in the Yeshivah community that would not want to have perpetrators of child abuse, of all types, be reported and dealt with by the appropriate authorities.
    However, when a CEO of an organisation which purports to be the advocate of these victims, but deems it okay to post a false accusation on his own FB site, and also feed it to the media without first contacting the principal or the committee of management of the institution in the first instance, to me that it outrageous and totally unacceptable.
    I, like so many others, have taken Rabbi Smukler’s letter to the community and to the parents for what it is, and that is the truth!
    I would be vey happy either to keep or send my children to the colleges, because I am confident that they have the safety of the students, all students, at heart, and they have programs in place to ensure all that.
    The latest article in the AJN and clearly endorsed by “Tzedek” is the height of arrogance, bias and 100% wrong, in fact it is nastiness personified, because it was reported without any credible research.
    The truth will come out! No matter what EN/ZW or MW say or write anywhere.

  • Jenny says:

    Sceptic, I can understand a fair bit of what you’re saying, and I do very clearly understand that your community feels itself to be the target of hatred and vilification – which I think is awful, since the problems you are experiencing have happened in many other communities and I don’t think anyone should be made to feel like they are tarnished with the child abuse brush just because of their beliefs/method of observance – but without knowing the ins and outs of the institutions, I’m not in a position to make a call about justifications for Tzedek’s behaviour in this instance.

    But it does seem to me that it might be justified for Tzedek to provide a safe place for victims to report what has happened to them, and to assist them to go to the police. If Manny, or Tzedek (are there other people involved in Tzedek? Surely there must be?) have had experiences which have led them to believe that the ‘inside institutions’ so to speak are reluctant to air the dirty laundry, or to engage in a full and frank investigation with full transparency and disclosure (which are absolutely necessary both to fix the problem, heal the community and to enable it to move forward), then surely it is understandable that they might feel it necessary to jump that step and go straight to the police and the public, in order to prevent any sweeping under the carpet?

    I’m not saying that the Yeshiva powers that be would sweep everything under the carpet now, and you are very clear that the parents are very concerned for their kids and (I think) you are implying that they would not allow such a thing to happen. Again, I have to stress that I don’t think Orthodoxy is full of monsters or awful people, and I know there are many good and honourable Orthodox people. But given the pretty extensive past history which really isn’t so long ago, wouldn’t it be understandable for Tzedek to behave that way, to ensure that the victims are protected?

    I’m not sure where the reports in the AJN fit into this. Have you read them? They don’t rely on Tzedek for their information at all, and they are extremely clear and firm that the allegations are true and there are matters before the police. I also don’t really understand the references to some sort of hate campaign against the Wax family, but if true, that also doesn’t help the impression of trying to bully victims into silence.

    As I say, to an outsider, it looks bad. Very bad. And perhaps the Orthodox community should consider trying to explain themselves publicly and at greater length. I know that’s a tricky one, but I really think they should.

  • Jenny says:

    Sorry for the direct follow on post, but Non Impressed – your post crossed mine.
    I have re-read the AJN article, and it clearly states that it spoke to the victims itself, and did not go through Tzedek.

    And I agree that the Yeshiva world is likely made up of mostly good who don’t want to put their children at risk or to cover up child abuse. Not all. Because the point is rather that there are some abusers in it – as there are in all communities, really, there are – and the problem comes when abusers are in a position of power, of whatever sort. Then, as is human nature, people from all communities are inclined to try covering it up, because no-one wants to go to gaol, get caught, or from a different angle, to bring their institutions into disrepute or to tarnish their jobs. This is human nature. But full disclosure is necessary in order to fix the problem.

    As for Rabbi Smukler’s letter, it could be read in several ways, one of which is the way in which you read it. You may be right, I don’t know. But the AJN contacted the police, and were told that they could neither confirm nor deny the rumours. I don’t think that means very much either way.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Not Impressed “There we go again.” Yes, it must be very annoying for you not to get away with the deceit.

    Jenny, you have understood well: AJN have spoken to a victim, who made a police complaint. Smukler has known about this for a long time, regardless of how many statements he puts out to parents, and regardless of what the statements say. Smukler also knows the identity of the target of the investigation, a current teacher in the Yeshivah Centre. In fact, there are plenty of people in Yeshivah Centre who know about the investigation, and some who also know the identity of the teacher. These denials by the principal and the cohort of trolls would be amusing, in a black way, were it not such a serious matter, because it shows a mindset which hasn’t changed: deny, blame victims and people who come forward etc.

    The police investigation is most certainly ongoing.

  • Brad says:

    Jenny et al.

    here is an interesting post from Tzedeks FB which has not been responded to as yet

    Tzedek on October 15 posted the following article.

    “A new victim has just contacted us regarding another alleged perpetrator. There are at least two alleged victims in this recent case. It’s the first time the young victim has disclosed this information. We hope that in due course a formal police statement will be made. At this stage we won’t name the Melbourne institution involved.

    Enough! No more silence.”

    The above article was subsequently removed within 36 hours but not before it had been copied and posted onto other blogs.

    Could Tzedek please explain
    1. the circumstances of it’s removal, the reasons why no explanations were provided bearing in mind the post is still circulating on the internet.

    2. No naming/shaming as is done constantly on any matter relating to the Yeshiva

    3. Whether Tzdedk has a policy which is consistent or one specific slanted policy directed at the Yeshiva.

    It appears the Yeshiva is deliberately targeted due to the reported sexual abuse perpetrated on it’s CEO.

    Your slogan “Enough! No more silence” should be practiced by those who preach it.

    Putting that aside for the moment, the police are not obliged to report anything to the AJN particularly as they must be monitoring the reports which make them (the police)seem look slow and stupid.

    However they (the police) do have an obligation to inform the school when there is an investigation underway particularly so when there may very well be a clear and present danger.

    Do you honestly believe Rabbi Smukler would be so unhinged as to allow someone under investigation to remain in front of a class?

    You mention the AJN spoke to the victim, I assume the alleged victim has also lodged a report to the police, yet you think the police nothing except twiddle their thumbs whilst Rome is burning?

    If there is a reason to investigate, you can be assured as tomorrow is Monday, they will.

    Suppose for the sake of the argument someone did drop a name of a current alleged teacher, what is exactly would you do in Rabbi Smuklers shoes? Stand the person down just because someone pointed a finger? That’s all that’s required? A pointed finger? I’m sure Rabbi Smukler looks into the matter, refers the name to the police, then follows the instructions given by the police, legal entities and other relevant expert professional bodies who despite Manny’s ramblings DO care about the school, do care about the students and do care about parents concerns.

    There must be some bona fides to the complaint or name dropping otherwise any disgruntled person, even ex-student (with a grudge) who may have performed poorly and was failed or disgruntled spouse etc, could have a field day. Are you basically supporting a free-for-all?

    There are without doubt protocols in place, protocols designed by leading experts in conjunction with the police, which must be followed.

    Could someone fall through the cracks now and again?

    Could very well happen, but what more can the school do to enure the best safety procedures other than rely on the experts, todays experts, not the arm-chair experts who rock up in 5,10 or 20 years with the usual 20/20 hindsight.

    Best sign of all?

    The parents of current students are unified in their support and endorse Rabbi Smukler with the exception of a few well known trouble-makers who would do everyone a favour by removing not only their children but also themselves from the Yeshivah environs.

    If it’s not safe, go elsewhere.

    The sooner the better!

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    “Brad, Not Impressed, Sceptic, Polygraph4Manny, kush, Esther, Johnny, Kadimah, Tzedek my foot, Nachi, yeshivah, united, Hang On”: So many independent and separate objectors to Manny and Tzedek! Amazing. Some of the names are a give-away though. “Malign Manny” is the object. People get it even if you think they don’t.

  • Reality Check, the comment wasn’t directed at you either.

  • Steven says:

    Editor: Do not discuss moderation policy in thread. Email the editors with any queries. Further such discussion in thread will result in suspension of your account.

  • Not Impressed says:

    Brad, I am with you all the way.
    It is PRECISELY what I have been posting only you have done it so much more eloquently.
    I would suggest that EN whoever he is, read you comments 101 times so that it will sink in.
    Some are just not interested in the reality but would rather engage in nonsensical debates as long as their presence is felt.
    Brad, your last comments are spot on.

    “The parents of current students are unified in their support and endorse Rabbi Smukler with the exception of a few well known trouble-makers who would do everyone a favour by removing not only their children but also themselves from the Yeshivah environs.

    If it’s not safe, go elsewhere.

    The sooner the better!”

  • Justice?! says:

    Where is the justice, Manny?

    If you are a champion of child safety, Why are children in Yeshivah missing out on the protection you claim to be working to facilitate for them because you can’t be objective and work with ALL communal organisations on this important issue?

    MANNY WAKS YOU SHOULD RESIGN AS CEO OF TZEDEK

    For your biased and unfair depiction of goings on or investigations about the Yeshivah – standards to which you do not subject any other communal organisation

    For failing to work WITH a communal organisation that wishes to work with Tzedek

    For unprofessional and impulsive posting of sensationalised posts (and then taking them down) – hardly an impartial move on behalf of such a noble organisation (well, noble in theory)

    MANNY WAKS YOU ARE A LOOSE CANNON.

    I and many other Yeshivah parents, put our faith in Rabbi Smukler and Victoria Police to keep our children safe from predators. I do not hesitate to send my sons to school tomorrow morning and I know that should Rabbi Smukler be told that he must suspend a staff member – he would.

    Manny – you have suffered – but show some Tzedek – why should parents, children and staff of Yeshivah suffer because you can’t let go?

    If you cared so much – you and Rabbi Smukler would be facilitating child safety information evenings together. But with your clear agenda against the Yeshivah, it is absolutely inappropriate for you to represent Tzedek as a true representative of Justice.

    I hope the board members of Tzedek will begin to see that this your subjective leadership is untenable for Tzedek to be truly noble.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Manny has done something right to upset these pedophile protectors

  • Sceptic says:

    RC – it is more than unfair to label people whe disagree with Manny’s evident bias against Yeshivah as being protective of pedophiles. In fact Manny is throwing the victims “under the bus” to get revenge for the abuse he suffered.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Sceptic what information do you have to substantiate what you say about Manny?

  • Nachi says:

    Editor: This entire comment contravenes the instruction not to post about the Waks family’s relationships. Such comments are potentially defamatory. Your account has been suspended.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Reallity Check, you know very well that the people on this forum are not “pedophile protectors”. That’s a shocking and unjustified accusation. You really ought to retract it.

  • WasThere says:

    I agree Joe….
    “pedophile protectors” is unjustified…..“pedophile supporter” would IMO be far more appropriate…

  • Reallity Check says:

    Going by your name, Was There, I thank you. You, like Manny, know what really went on.

  • WasThere says:

    Yes “Reallity check” I was there and am privy to most of the non-published “inside” information….
    Under the rules of this blog(as I understand them) since I started with this name I must stick to it….
    But over at FM I post as “Aussie”…))

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Oh, for goodness’ sake. If you guys actually cared about the safety of children you wouldn’t be acting this way. Every time you make a false accusation it makes it a bit more likely that real ones will be dismissed.

  • Reallity Check says:

    Joe of Australia, I hope you have information to support what you say

  • Steven says:

    Editor: You have been warned not to discuss moderation policy in thread. Your account has been suspended.

  • Sunshine says:

    http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/call-to-stand-down-yeshivah-teacher-20120524-1z7xw.html

    Is this teacher still at a school claiming to protect their children?

  • hang on says:

    if manny wax knows anything about the bimah rapist “what a crock” and he has kept silent ,he is as guilty as the rapist,as guilty as content removed by editor.

    Editor: Do not write about Waks family matters You have ignored warnings not to do so and your account has been suspended.

  • Sunshine says:

    From the degradation of discussion to vindictive shameful attacks by those who can only be part of the YC circle, it seems as if Tzedek is close to a very uncomfortable truth.

    The louder they screech the harder you work Manny and Tzedek. You must be doing something right.

  • knowtoomuch says:

    Unfortunately I think there is too much being swept under the rugs and if people put two and two together they will see people within leadership positions within the Chabad community doing most of this sweeping. It doesn’t look good to have hired someone who went on to abuse children so sometimes its better to make the children look like liars in these people’s eyes.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/fresh-yeshivah-sex-charge-20111018-1lyr7.html

    http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/08/another-arrest-in-chabad-child-sex-abuse-scandal-123.html

    I really hope the truth comes out soon and all those who are in denial or who are actively covering up for these offenders can look like the fools they are.

  • Jenny says:

    But that’s pretty much my point: given that there is extensive recent history of these things being either actively covered up or not acted on through some sort of horrified intertia – and that this history has been proved and beyond doubt – why are so many of you willing to state outright that this is all Manny’s fabrication and part of a plot to bring down the Yeshivah? I don’t understand, I really don’t. I understand that you feel victimized, and I can imagine why – but isn’t it more important to believe victims unless proven otherwise?

    and to the person above (sorry, I don’t remember who) who said something like ‘What should Rabbi Smukler do? Stand the person down just because someone pointed a finger?’ – the answer is yes, that is exactly what he should do. And I believe that is what is legally required. This is the way working with children works.

    Again, I don’t think you are all pedophile supporters or enablers or anything like that, and I think such descriptions are pretty out there and unhelpful (unless I was a victim, I might think differently then and that is also understandable). But as I say, I really don’t get the attitude.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Jenny, agree with most, well expressed.

    One thing though, in your statement “I don’t think you are all pedophile supporters or enablers or anything like that”, the “anything like that” is a problem: as demonstrated in the most senior rabbi’s answer to Mr Waks senior
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=314050288736904&id=216632805145320
    , “even a repeatedly convicted perpetrator’s well-being trumps any consideration at all for past or possible future victims”. How would you describe people who act out and promulgate such dangerous views? And to be sure, some of the disgusting vilification on this blog fits into that category.

  • freddy says:

    Editor: this comment is abusive and guesses at the identity of a poster. This violates commenting policy.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Jenny, all I know is what has been reported here: that an anonymous person claims to have been raped on the bimah of the synagogue at Yeshiva, and in the pews. I don’t find the claim plausible, because the synagogue was until recently kept open all the time, and was frequently used as a convenient shortcut from one side of the building to the other. But that’s not for me to decide; I presume that the matter is being investigated.

    I don’t know whether Manny actually told Yeshiva which staff member was allegedly responsible; he has been very vague about this. In any event, I think it should be obvious that a school cannot stand people down just because someone says they received an anonymous report; every school in Melbourne could be closed overnight by a malicious prankster. Rabbi Smukler’s email, above, says:

    The Police have made it very clear that should they believe that there is cause for concern or that we need to take action in relation to any staff member, they will contact us immediately.

    The Police have unequivocally confirmed, that at present, there are no concerns about any of our staff whatsoever.

    If the Police or any government agency were to make us aware of any staff member being investigated for allegations of child abuse, our school policy is clear and unequivocal; we would unhesitatingly stand them down and remove them from having any access or exposure to our children during the investigation.


    That seems a reasonable position to me.

    I don’t know Manny personally, but I admired his strength and courage in coming forward and his frankness in dealing with the events of his past. I am not so impressed with his press releases complaining that his father didn’t get an aliyah, or was allegedly shoved by a member at the synagogue, or whatever. This latest press release seems similarly pointless: are the police aware of the allegation? Good. Would the school react appropriately? Great. So why tell us that there is an anonymous paedophile at Yeshiva? Should we take our kids out of the school on Manny’s say-so? If he truly thinks that they’re at risk, why not give us a name? There can be no fear of a libel suit if the facts are true; and no fear of interfering with a police investigation if no investigation is going on – which is what the police actually say. My opinion is that his latest announcement looks like publicity-seeking and that it can’t help the police, parents, or the community generally.

  • Jenny says:

    But, if there is an accusation about a specific person, regardless of the context (and especially if they go to the police too) schools are required by law to stand that person down while it is investigated, I think. Anyone know?

  • freddy says:

    Jenny,

    not sure if you read the story and all the previous posts. (or you are a the same commentor but as a different name regurgitating the same nonsense over and over again)

    1) There is currently NO investigation by the police. (only by tzedek)

    2) there is no law for the school to stand anyone down. (in fact if the school does that they can be sued)

    3) the police have told the school that there is no danger.

  • Jenny says:

    I have only posted under this name.
    and I have heard everything you’re saying, but given the past statements of the police I don’t think anyone can claim with certainty that there is no investigation.
    and if the story is made up, it is being made up independently by the AJN as well as Tzedek.

    none of which addresses my question! Which is basically this: given that all these things have been wrong in the past, why are you all behaving with such finger-pointing certainty now? THAT’s what i don’t understand, and no-one will answer me!

    and honestly, the conversation’s going around and around and nothing is being answered!

  • kush says:

    Jenny,

    There is nothing to be answered which hasn’t already been.

    The reason for the finger pointing is because Manny publized an unsubstantiated claim which has been contradicted by both the school and the police. As Rabbi Smukler pointed out, Manny has a vendetta against orthodox jewry and the yeshivah centre in particular.

    People have finally had enough.

    The school will not ruin a person’s life because an anonymous person makes a claim.

    The school follows the law. The police are the enforcers of the law.

    If you don’t trust the police, then no rational answer will satisfy you.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Jenny, is there an accusation against a specific person? You would think so, but everyone who claims this has been very quiet about his or her identity.

    As for a school being required to stand someone down, I’ve looked for any information about such a requirement and I can’t find any. Schools do have a duty of care towards their pupils which I suppose would mean that they must protect students from a teacher whom they believed to be dangerous, but I hope every school would stand a teacher down in that situation. Otherwise, the closest thing I can find to a guideline on sexual assault in schools is here: Responding to Student Sexual Assault. It specifically says that schools are not to conduct their own enquiries, but are required to report any alleged incident to the Victoria Police Sexual Offences and Child Abuse Investigation Teams via 000.

    schools have a duty to protect

  • Sunshine says:

    http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/12/eading-chabad-rabbi-under-police-investigation-789.html

    When reading this I understand why no one answers you Jenny.

    This school has kept in its employ a man who know of the rape of children and did nothing.

    How can the current principle claim to take protection and child safety seriously when this man is still there.

    Any of the above names wish to answer?

  • Sunshine says:

    And again…… The same Rabbi not reporting and worse placing children in the care of a known peadophile.

    http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/yeshivah-community-leaders-knew-of-sex-abuse-complaints-20130917-2twwv.html

    Is this how YC keeps children safe? Is this Rabbi still there?

    And if so how can Smuklers statement be taken as anything but a lie.

  • WasThere says:

    There are people on both sides of this discussion who seem to be confused by various points of fact and logic….

    1)To suggest that there is no investigation is a nonsense….
    Police rarely confirm or deny such things unless they want it made public….

    2)To suggest that a Senior Constable even knows about every investigation by every officer is a nonsense….They wouldn’t know what each squad and each detective are up to and even if they knew about the investigation you asking about they wouldn’t tell you anything…

    3)To suggest that Yeshivah suspend the person(s) being investigated is a nonsense….
    And YES there are more then one investigation ongoing into Australian Jewish Community…Not just Melbourne and not just Yeshivah employees….
    Yeshivah employees like with all schools in Victoria require a valid working with children permit…
    If the police thought there was any risk then the persons permit would be stopped which would in turn mean they automatically suspended from contact with students….
    So NO Jenny…Yeshivah is NOT required by law to suspend anyone…YET…

    3)To suggest that Manny or anyone else reveal the identity of the person who claim they were raped on the bima is a nonsense….This is illegal as there is an automatic suppression order against naming victims…..

    4)To suggest that the person(s) being investigated is named is a nonsense….No charges have been laid…It is still just an investigation….

    5)To suggest that these are “false accusations” as at least one person here has done is a nonsense…Same person said the same thing about 2 years ago when Cyprys case started….And we all know how that ended…))

    6)To suggest that the “bima” case is not “plausible, because the synagogue was until recently kept open all the time, and was frequently used as a convenient shortcut from one side of the building to the other.” is a nonsense…
    You do not know in what year the “victim” claims the events took place…For all you know it could have been 25 years ago during the afternoon when the shul was deserted for hours each day….

    7)To suggest that “all these things have been wrong in the past, why are you all behaving with such finger-pointing certainty now?” is a nonsense….
    In regards to Melbourne Yeshivah there have been 2 cases go to court with 2 convictions…

    Both sides need to think before they post nonsense…))

  • Jenny says:

    ok. I’m going to ask this one last time, and then I’m giving up, because honestly, there are only so many times one can say the same thing without one’s eyeballs falling out of one’s head in frustration and tedium.

    The police haven’t outright denied anything. They have said to the AJN that ‘hey can neither confirm nor deny that there is an investigation’. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THINGS AS SAYING NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. It is an answer framed to say nothing either way.

    Tzedek is not the only group which claims that there is a specific allegation against a specific person. The AJN does too. The AJN would be subject to some serious legal action if they say this stuff without a firm basis. I know nothing about the Yeshiva system, so THAT IS WHY I’M ASKING YOU.

    Given that, and given past history when the same thing happened and the accusations were awfully proved to be true, why are people so sure THIS TIME that these accusations are false, and why are they so confidently blaming Tzedek? Please, give me a straight answer.

  • Jenny says:

    sorry for the follow-on post, but I think just to give my one last shot a fighting chance I should specify some things:

    are you trying to say that the Yeshiva has put new processes in place to make sure that they cannot repeat their past behaviour? If so, what are they?

    things of that sort are the answers I’m looking for! not just variations on ‘there is no problem, people are making it all up’.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    I smile at the “processes in place” and other meaningless statements from Yeshivah Centre.

    In “Rabbi Smukler’s Statement on the Sentencing of Mr David Kramer” emailed out to parents on 24/7/2013, he states: “All staff undergo screening before employment”. Does that mean that the teacher currently under investigation by the police would be excluded today if he came to apply for a job, even without charges, because it would be “before employment”? If so, why does he continue to be employed today?

  • WasThere says:

    @Jenny

    The simple reason why people say these allegations are false is because they simply refuse to believe that anything bad about Yeshivah can be true…
    There are those who still refuse to accept that the 2 cases which were in court this year are true even though to 2 people involved plead guilty which means they admit it’s true…
    This is no different to what has happened for decades in the Catholic church….

    Only time will tell if the “bima” case is true or false….Right now none of us know for sure either way….
    It will be most interesting to see if other victims come forward and make similar claims to being raped in shuel and enticed there by the same means(chocolates etc)….
    History shows that outside of family such offenders have almost always multiple victims…
    The reason you reading about the case in the Jewish News is in the hope that this will bring more victims(if they exist) to also report to the police…

    Hope this answers your question…))

  • Not Impressed says:

    Jenny,
    If you want honest answers call the principal of the college yourself.
    Bypass the silly and obviously biased comments of EN!!
    The number of the School can be easily obtained and I am sure that the principal will speak to you.
    Try it.
    The AJN is equivalent to all other sensation-seeking papers.
    It doesn’t matter if it is true or not, as long as it besmirches a religious institution or individual.
    The author of these articles is known for his anti religious feelings.

  • Brad says:

    Jenny

    Give us a break!

    Again and again and again and again?

    But here’s a challenge for you.

    You up to it?

    Adopt a different point of view to Newgant and you’ll be labelled a troll, a pedophile protector etc as are all the others who have a different view to him.

    But trust me, if you are speculating as to his identity, rest assured you’re the only.

    One thing for sure, after reading your circular posts, I’m certainly not going to waste my time trying to explain anything to you. See if you can figure out why?

    Bye sweetheart!
    (becha I’m talking to a guy! No woman could be so silly and vague)

  • Jenny says:

    Huh? Honestly, your comment is completely unintelligible, except the part where you suggest that I’m a man.
    I’m really not a man.
    Not that has anything to do with anything.
    My posts are circular because no one will give me a straight answer (I mean, if there are new processes, shouldn’t you know about them because you’re defending the school? Can’t you just tell me instead of asking me to call the school? That in itself isn’t very convincing.

    And I don’t appreciate being called sweetheart.

    I now officially give up.

  • Galus Australis says:

    Brad, do not call people, “sweetheart,” do not be unnecessarily rude, and do not speculate about commenters’ identities.

    Do not discuss these instructions in thread.

    Failure to comply will result in suspension of your account.

  • cb says:

    Jenny

    Everything you have said and asked is totally rational, not to mention sensible.

    Please do not pay attention to rude people.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Jenny, before we sent our kids to Yeshiva we sat down for a meeting with a number of Yeshiva’s staff members, including Rabbi Smukler. We asked him about this, as well as other matters, and I was satisfied with the answers we got. I don’t recall all the details, so I encourage you to ask the school yourself, but they included its formalised policies for dealing with allegations of abuse, prohibitions on teachers secluding themselves with students, windows in classroom doors, and probably some other things. I wasn’t interested in the specifics as much as my assessment of the institutional culture as a whole: bad actors can work around the specifics of any policy, but I hope that a staff that is informed and enabled will be alert to any suspicious behavior.

  • Jenny says:

    Thank you. That is at least part of the answer I was looking for.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Yes Jenny, you got the easy part of the answer: the policies and the wonderful words from Smukler.

    The other part, why the teacher who is being currently investigated by the police is still teaching in the school, while this same Smukler does a Colonel Klink (“I know nothing”)…

  • Brad says:

    Newgant,

    You’re right about one thing. You know nothing.

    Can’t you get anything right? Try……. Shultz!

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    My apologies Brad, thank you for the correction, this is the only thing we’ve been discussing that you have been right about: you know the correct names of two people known to have regularly said “I know nothing”: Shultz and Smukler.

    Come to think of it, Shultz was never telling the truth either, and everyone knew it, he just said it to get himself out of trouble. Thanks for reminding me!

    For those who don’t know what’s being talked about here, Google “Hogans Heroes”. In fact, it’s uncanny: Wikipedia calls him the “inept sergeant-of-the-guard, Hans Schultz”…

  • Brad says:

    Newgant

    Seeing you can’t stand Smukler, a barefaced lier in your books, him being the principal of YBR, that infamous school which protects sexual abusers and allows them to continue fronting up to classes, why then do you keep your daughter at the school? Oops, sorry, that was a typo. Why then does Waks keep his daughter at such a dangerous place? On principle alone one would have thought an outraged parent with a venomous unquenchable dislike for the school would surely have removed that child from that environment.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Emanuel Newgant wrote:

    The other part, why the teacher who is being currently investigated by the police is still teaching in the school, while this same Smukler does a Colonel Klink (“I know nothing”)…

    I’m another person who knows “nothing”; I keep asking why you or Manny refuse to tell us anything. I can’t see any legal or moral reason for this incessant crowing about your little secret.

    Incidentally, Malki Rose writes above:

    if Manny calls him or emails him and gives him (even in the strictest of confidence) the name of this individual in the school who is a threat to children and details the nature of the allegation.. he will WITHOUT HESITATION, SUSPEND THE EMPLOYEE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

    I think it’s put-up or shut-up time: why don’t you or Manny call Rabbi Smukler and make your allegation to him?

  • Jonny Schauder says:

    To clarify, the earlier Johnny posts were not me. Hopefully no one got confused.

    I’ve just caught up on this discussion and really appreciated “was there’s” summary. Very articulate.

    This conversation misses so many subtlies in what is an “investigation” who are the “police”, the difference between being stood down rather that separated from direct child work etc.

    I feel very badly for the YBR parents because this kind of investigatory process is very disempowering.

    I wouldn’t know what to do for my kids.

    There is definitely something going on – another possible case has clearly been identified by Tzedek – irrespective of motivation.

    The Principals public notes are either deliberately vague or unnecessarily dismissive. And the attacks on Manny included in the public replies are simply bizarre for a School principle in a case being raised by a proven past victim of YBR cover up.

    And yes those who attack Manny for keeping this issue at front of mind for all of us seem way too defensive given two cases (including his own) have gone to court and been unequivocally proven. You keep asking why he “attacks” YBR? Really? It is the school he went to and his family has committed their whole life to… It is the school where he experienced abuse and denial first hand. And it is the School that at least from an orthodox perspective is at the centre of our community. It is the School that will produce the majority of our future Rabbis. It is ground zero for all of us. Even those if us who do not use the school facilities. It must be a focus.

    Someone is clearly “investigating” an allegation… And my conclusion is that the school knows.

    Should the school keep the person being investigated away from kids – yep!

    Does that mean up publically identifying or standing them down until more is known? Nope.

    I’d like to believe everyone is doing the right thing here. But for the parents it is a nightmare.

    Hopefully the School has acted but cannot tell anyone of their actions.

    Hopefully The AJN and Tzedek have enough clarity on the case to have alerted the Community at this stage.

    Hopefully the “police” are all over it but have to deny it for normal natural justice to occur.

    I believe everyone may be trying their best on this one which sounds more complicated that this discussion seems to acknowledge.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Nice Jonny.

    “Should the school keep the person being investigated away from kids – yep!”. Is that happening – nah!

    “attacks on Manny included in the public replies are simply bizarre” – yep, but Yeshivah Centre thinks that the path of denial and cover-up has worked so well for 50 years (not a typo)…

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Jonny Schauder wrote:

    You keep asking why he “attacks” YBR? Really?

    I didn’t see anyone wondering why he attacks YBR. He’s obviously very angry with it, and understandably so. The problem is that he aspires to be the voice of child protection in the Jewish community, and personally-motivated attacks aren’t compatible with that rôle.

    In the case at hand there’s a good deal of heat and very little light. Manny started this and he could clear it all up. For a start, he could take up Rabbi Smukler’s offer to have the alleged offender suspended. Why on earth wouldn’t he do this?

  • WasThere says:

    Emanuel Newgant says:
    October 24, 2013 at 6:33 am

    “Should the school keep the person being investigated away from kids – yep!”. Is that happening – nah!
    ———————————————————————

    Actually Emanuel you may not be correct there as what may have looked to be “unrelated events” after the first AJN story did take place….
    IMO it was related….

    And no I won’t elaborate or go into details here since Galus admin has clearly set rules which I will respect….

    But do keep an open eye as “he” may post it over “there” some time soon…

  • Jonny Schauder says:

    Thanks for the replies guys.

    EN – I pray that you’re not in on what the school have done, otherwise the negligence claims will be through the roof.

    Joe, I personally believe that the Community needs a crusader like Manny who is personally involved.

    I mean we are talking about our Rabbinical Pathway Institution and Rebetzen College here – who else could have had the insight, courage or motivation than someone from within that system who had been assaulted by both an attacker and then the system?

    In terms of the offer to speak to the Principal, well again, that may be too simple a question.

    I have no idea whether they have or haven’t spoken. I don’t know how much of this media talk is theatre and how much is real. I think strategically, so yes, if I were the Principal I would be carefully coordinating media with Manny to ensure the community feel safe. Full stop. (This is not reflected in his statement).

    If I were Manny, I would be waiting to see the reactions from the administration at YBR in order for the parents and the wider community to test genuine commitment and openness to the new approach… I think that is Manny’s job.

    This is “just” another case of many community cases that I’m sure the senior administrators at YRB will need to deal with. We all have to get better at it. Criminals will exist everywhere. Denial is no answer. Engagement must be genuine. Manny is not an idiot.

    This is why we should be happy with everyone playing their roles – Manny is the crusader. We all need that based on the past few decades.
    The Principal is the Principal and must put out communications to both reassure and confirm intentions.
    The YBR admin must take all of this incredibly seriously – because the kids in the school will never not be “at risk” of this stuff creeping in… like at all schools…
    But again with the history of two recently proven cases, they must be highly alert for the next ten years … and Manny is making sure that we are all watching now.

    And the police or whatever squad or body is on the case must investigate properly and legally so nothing gets messed up in the meantime and any convictions will stick.

  • WasThere says:

    @Joe…

    Joe, how can you be sure that Rabbi Smukler has no idea who is being investigated??….Have you asked him??….Or you just assume that he doesn’t know??….

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    JS, you don’t need to be worried about negligence claims. Brad, Not Impressed, Sceptic, Polygraph4Manny, kush, Esther, Johnny, Kadimah, Tzedek my foot, Nachi, yeshivah, united, and Hang On have all assured the Yeshivah Centre leadership that everything is being handled well in the current case. Probably better for Joe in Australia, as an actual lawyer, to keep out of it.

  • Jonny Schauder says:

    EN I can see how the Principal may be stuck in the situation. Can’t breach confidentiality, can’t talk about police activities, can’t provide details of response, has an obligation to protect the kids no matter what. This is complex stuff.

    The YBR “defenders” here don’t make it any easier turning Manny into the devil either because it places a further pressure on the administration NOT to work with him, or risk being seen (completely inappropriately) as weak. And so the rhetoric escalates.

    Instead, as a clear sign of strength, YBR should be actively and positively engaging Tzedek, working together not just on this claim but all updates to the processes and governance in this area, and use the amazing skills that the Tzedek Group can bring to the table for the good of all, and to the detriment of offenders – past, present and future.

    Like I say, 2 clearly convicted recent cases, with damaged victims and clear admissions of guilt… must indicate that, in a small community like ours, vigilance and collaboration is key. And we should be way ahead of any other community in our ability to work together.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    JS: No argument from me! But I draw the line at the Principal knowingly misleading his constituency, even if “This is complex stuff”.

    And even apart from questions of morality and hypocrisy for a self-professed religious group, based on the disastrous practical results of the past, and obviously still current, approach of cover-up and denial, the leadership must not be allowed to continue down that path.

  • Nachi says:

    The questioning of Waks’ here goes to credibility & motivation in telling
    this story. A significant number of people question both.

    Repeating nonsense statements, persistently, do not equate to facts.
    Despite what Jenny and others repeat, nothing is proved or has been proven,
    all we have is a story and 2 outrageous claims.

    The police are investigating but are acting outside of the law in not
    informing the school of an accusation against an employee or teacher, and
    have that person stood down from contact with kids, and

    that a school principal, a principal of Waks daughter, is being deceitful
    and dishonest in his written statements. That the only one who has spoken
    publicly and confronted the story is telling lies. And the trolls accept
    it. Whoa, that’s a serious accusation. Without any supporting evidence just
    “trust me I know”.

    So we are back to credibility and motivation…

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    @Nachi: Yes, Yeshivah Centre leadership has a proven track record of “credibility and motivation…”

  • Sunshine says:

    Editor: Do NOT speculate about the identity of alleged perpetrators. Any further speculation will result in suspension of your account. Do not discuss this instruction in thread. Failure to comply will also result in suspension.

  • WasThere says:

    @Nachi…

    To suggest that the police are “acting outside of the law” is a nonsense….

    Just because Rabbi Smukler doesn’t name the person being investigated in a mass email to parents does not in any way mean that the police have not told him the identity of the person being investigated….

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Editor: Do NOT speculate about the identity of alleged perpetrators. Any further speculation will result in suspension of your account. Do not discuss this instruction in thread. Failure to comply will also result in suspension.

  • Galus Australis says:

    Editor: Do NOT speculate about the identity of alleged perpetrators. Any further speculation will result in suspension of your account. Do not discuss this instruction in thread. Failure to comply will also result in suspension.

  • JAW says:

    My Experience:

    It’s been a few years since my son went to Yeshiva College in Melbourne. I can say that whilst he attended the school I found it incredibly frustrating and disheartening with what appeared to be an illusion of professionalism. They appeared on the outside to run a respectable & professional organization and educational institution. The reality I experienced was however, very different. Prior to my child attending the school he attended a prominent non Jewish private school.. So the bar was already very high.

    Both Nepotism and favoritism shown on the basis of family relationships, was rife throughout the school. If you didn’t have the right surname, you weren’t anyone of any importance and therefore not a consideration. Also if you weren’t in the top 100 BRW list you weren’t that important either. Numerous occasions out of pure frustration I would need to go straight to the top (Rabbi Groner) to get any answers and issues within the school dealt with.

    What did Yeshiva do for my son? They turned him against his own religion – What he witnessed there was not Judaism, not inclusive at all. I hold Rabbi Glick fully responsible for that and always will. Now with the recent revelation that Glick knew something and did nothing in the Cyprus & Cramer cases is sickening – That Rabbi Groner knew something and did nothing as a leader goes a long way in explaining how the abusers were able to get away with it until now.

    I have personal experience with a member of our extended family that abused their own children over many years both physically and sexually. It was quickly apparent that speaking about this, even within the family, was simply not on! That individual (abuser) will never face justice – and ostensibly cured of their illness so I’m advised. That loving reformed (abusive) parent davens in Shul here in Melbourne every morning and every Shabbat. They could be sitting next to you! Many Many people reading this will know this person personally, would have sat at his Shabbat table; invited this individual to their homes – Married their children into the family and even share grandchildren. Now the survivor in all this is in complete denial and in fact will go to any length not to have this information out in the public domain for fear that their own children will struggle to find marriage partners if it comes out.

    Abuse happens; it happens everywhere in every community and is not specific to our community. I do feel that we are behind the eight ball when it comes to dealing with it directly, honestly and openly. Transparency has never been a strong suit of the powers that be within this community, whether it be how the Yeshiva college is run or how it deals with these sorts of abuse cases.

    IMHO these abusers need face Justice in this life. Now, not in the world to come.

    BTW for those wanting to tell me to go to the police regarding the case I mention above. I did, and the survivor denied all claims and backs the abuser 100%. The Family name was once again far more important than the protection and safety of other children. Makes you think twice about who you allow your children to be around. Especially when you know that these people exist here and now, hiding under a pious and Frum guise.

    Very sad and extremely disgraceful.

    Enough, NO MORE SILENCE indeed!

    MANNY – KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    Editor: Do not discuss moderation policy in thread. Your account has been suspended for 24 hours.

  • Emanuel Newgant says:

    JAW, how refreshing, though damning! You certainly know what’s flying.

    I especially agree with your comment “IMHO these abusers need face Justice in this life. Now, not in the world to come.” That’s the most effective safeguard for the future, apart from other moral considerations. Anyone that wants to deal only with the future, while forgetting about the past, is only fooling themselves and/or attempting to fool others.

    But unfortunately, that’s the strong impression that Yeshivah Centre gives to many, many people in Melbourne, and around the world. Totally immoral, and a huge Chilul Hashem (desecration of G-d’s Name).

  • Jenny says:

    Nachi,

    it is really dumb to lump me someone who is asking questions – questions that I tried really hard to put politely – in a group you entirely discredit because you say they have an axe to grind.

    I really tried as hard as I could to make it clear that I’m not Orthodox, am unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the Yeshiva system, and that I don’t think all Orthodoxy is discredited because of the awful behaviour of the few. What more would you have me do? Not ask questions at all?

  • Nachi says:

    Jenny, by your own admission you are unfamiliar with the dynamics at play here, but you still refer earlier to proven facts here, that is, accepting this story as fact from people who may have an ulterior motive and despite public statements which the authorities could discredit of they felt it necessary.
    So no one knows the facts besides an unusually quiet Manny and EN, well I don’t accept that blindly and niether should you.

  • WasThere says:

    @Nachi…

    There are many of us who know the facts….

    There are of course those who after 2 people pleaded guilty still won’t accept the facts….

    Please don’t shoot the messenger but here are the facts…

    1)There is an investigation going on because an ex-student went to police and made a complaint….
    By law the police MUST investigate…

    2)Manny Waks did not initiate the investigation…
    3)Manny Waks is not involved in the investigation….
    4)Manny Waks and Tzedeck is only involved to give support to the victim….

    5)Not Manny or EN or I will name who the ex-student is or who is being investigated…

    6)It does not matter if you or I or Manny or Smukler or anyone else believe the ex-students claims to be true or false….

    7)Where this investigation ends is only in the hands of the police and the DPP….It’s up to them and only them to decide if the person should be charged and face court….

    At the end of the day the fact remains that there IS an investigation and there is not a thing you or anyone else can do to stop it…

  • Jonny Schauder says:

    @Nachi
    Motivation and credibility? Really? Ok…
    Here it is: two cases, two cover ups, two convictions, two jail terms… Many victims.
    Wake up.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    WasThere wrote:

    Just because Rabbi Smukler doesn’t name the person being investigated in a mass email to parents does not in any way mean that the police have not told him the identity of the person being investigated….

    It doesn’t mean that they did tell him the name of the person being investigated, either. Why do we have to have this “well, he ought to know” business when the whole matter could be resolved by Manny picking up the phone?

    Incidentally, where are the other members of Tzedek in all this? Their involvement might make this a bit less about Manny Waks and a bit more about child protection.

  • Jonny Schauder says:

    Let’s hope they all start having a proper dialogue soon Joe.

  • WasThere says:

    @Joe,

    No…..There is no matter to clear up…You can clear up your own uncertainty by picking up the phone and calling Rabbi Smukler yourself…
    Short and sweet…Just confirm with him that he knows who is being investigated…A simple yes or no from the Rabbi followed by a simple “Thank you Rabbi for your time” from you…

    There is not even a need for you to come back and tell us what we already know..

    And what dialogue are you seeking between Yeshivah and Tzedeck Joe??….
    All that is needed is for Yeshivah as a whole to obey the laws of mandatory reporting as required in the state of Victoria…

    Person says “abuse” the police get called…No if’s no buts, no messirah no excuses…Just obey the law…

  • Nachi says:

    I’m intrigued how so many people claim to know the story and the level of
    police investigation

    We know from earlier posts here and on other forums that Manny, Z Waks, EN,
    was there, plus “many others” claim to know the detail of the alleged story.

    Did the alleged victim tell the police and Manny?

    Did Manny tell someone else who then told others?

    Did Manny discuss the detail with all the above.

    Did the alleged victim tell them all collectively or individually?

    Does confidentiality or suppression of names not apply?

  • WasThere says:

    LOL @Nachi…

    The alleged story was posted in the Jewish News….So everyone knows the allegations….No secrets there…

    None have ever claimed to know the level of investigation…All we know is that there is an investigation…

    I have no idea who the alleged victim is….Nor do I want to know…

    The identity of the person being investigated is now known by much of the Melbourne community …Even those outside of Chabad know the identity….

    If I had to bet as to how the persons identity got out then my money would be on the police…

    And for your information…Only the victims name has automatic suppression…The person being investigated does not…

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Well. The story (which I haven’t heard, evidently I hang with the wrong crowd) may have got out via the police, who apparently deny that there even is an investigation. Or it may have got out via someone who has made several press releases about the story, many Facebook posts, and who has his own blog devoted to the subject.

    I don’t know of course.

    But I would think the answer is obvious.

  • Sunshine says:

    Sadly another arrest from the Yeshiva centre in Sydney.

    Same leaders . Tzedek made another difference and yet for whatever reason I am sure the above critics will excuse the arrest by character assassinations of the Waks Family.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/daniel-hayman-charged-over-child-sex-at-bondis–jewish-yeshiva-centre-20131105-2wyl6.html

    http://www.tzedek.org.au/alleged-sydney-yeshiva-paedophile-arrested/

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Sunshine, I don’t like the vindictive accusations that often appear here and I’m glad that the blog tries to moderate them. They’re not appearing in a vacuum, though. There have been many nationally-reported news stories about (and presumably emanating from) the Waks family. It’s unreasonable to expect that people will have no interest in these stories, and abstain from commenting on them.

  • Sunshine says:

    Perhaps then Joe you. An explain why Daniel Hayman was allowed to lead a prayer service in Yeshiva Sydney after his release on bail, for raping children , today?

    Does something the Waks family did or didn’t do make this ok?

    What kind if people allow this monster to do such a thing?

    I’ll take my chances with the Waks

  • TheSadducee says:

    I’m staggered ‘if’ that is true – can that be confirmed?

    Did Yeshiva Sydney actually allow a bailed suspect of child abuse to openly participate in a prayer service?

    Although innocent until proven guilty, there is a certain level of prudence that should be undertaken here and whooever made that call is totally oblivious (disturbingly so!) to public perception and sentiment and the damage they are doing to their community.

    He shouldn’t be put under Cherem but he should be refused entry and participation until cleared – he doesn’t have to attend services to pray and he can receive visitors for private prayer until that time so he is not unjustly treated.

    This just boggles the mind ‘if’ true.

  • WasThere says:

    It’s true….It happened because Heyman is a mourner saying kaddish….Chabad custom is for a mourner to lead the service…

  • Joe in Australia says:

    I have no idea what the possible connection between these two ideas might be, and I have less than no idea about what goes on in some synagogue in Sydney.

  • emanuel newgant says:

    WasThere: “Chabad custom is for a mourner to lead the service”. That’s a general rule, but not iron-clad. Did you hear about the guy that announced in 770 that the Rebbe was niftar, and then tried to daven at the omed? Was that poor soul worse than an alleged multiple pedo?

  • WasThere says:

    No Emanuel I didn’t hear about that…..

    For those who missed the report on jwire….
    Heyman has been told he is not welcome at Yeshivah….This was told to him by the shuel president…

  • emanuel newgant says:

    Sorry WasThere, I was being cryptic. What I was trying to say was: if someone walked into 770 and announced that the Rebbe was niftar, he may be stoned, but almost certainly would not be permitted to daven at the omed. An alleged multiple pedo, no problem! Shows priorities and values, that’s what I meant.

    Anyway, thanks for updating us that “commonsense” and decency prevailed.

  • WasThere says:

    No problem Emanuel….All is good….

    And you welcome for the updates which I always do my best to deliver as accurately and as fast as possible with as much information as I can give….
    But please be advised that any updates I give here at this site are on time delay.
    Please accept my apologies but this is beyond my control….

  • Joe in Australia says:

    I appreciate that it might be a good idea for a suspect to keep away from potential witnesses, but there’s a certain amount of irony in Manny Waks arguing that someone should be excluded from synagogue activities.

  • WasThere says:

    No irony at all Joe….
    One is a case of a person being shunned and bullied to the point where they have to sell their home and move who I might add has done nothing wrong to anyone….
    The other is a person who is charged with child molestation being kept away from potential witnesses….And children…

    I’m actually rather shocked here Joe….I would have thought you’d be one of the loudest voices against bullying…..
    Pity the concept of “anti bullying” didn’t exist when we were in high school……..

  • emanuel newgant says:

    Joe, I find your last comment malicious, as I can’t believe you are that stupid in the “irony” you see. You would feel at home in the Yeshivah Centre.

  • Brad says:

    Manny posted on his Facebook
    See for yourselves…..

    Deborah Huber: a fair and moving description of the injustice done to the Waks family. I am always struck by the heroism of Manny’s parents, Zephania and Chaya. It would have been easier for them to join the groundswell of chabadniks whose view was ( as stated to me) “get over it”. If it is accurate that some of Manny’s own siblings are not speaking to him, then how remarkeable that the Waks’ parents stand steadfast with their son. I have distanced myself from Chabad for several reasons including the abhorrent hypocrisy of how Zephaniah and chaya were treated. It is incumbent upon the Modern Orthodox community ( and by that I mean those who actively engage and become qualified to work in the secular world) to hunt down, root out not only those who abuse children but EQUALLY SO, those who harbor, protect and employ them once they are “relocated” or vilify those seeking justice.
    about an hour ago · Like · 2

    Manny Waks: Thank you for the support. Sadly, the entire article is accurate.

    Bullshit! The article as presented is FALSE.

    Yes, Waks Snr is being shunned and deservedly so. Everyone in Yeshivah & elsewhere who is familiar with the ongoing saga knows Waks snr shunning has nothing to do with his supporting Manny, except the external “Useful Idiots” who mean well, but haven’t got a clue as to what’s been happening over the past 20+ years. Why is it that people believe everything they read? Do they ever bother to scratch below the surface? The Yeshivah community don’t live in a vacuum. The first question anyone on the outside should be asking is what the heck is really going on. You think the entire Yeshivah community are pedophile protectors or enablers? Those of you who do, are simply gullible and reminiscent of the the average non-Jew with ingrained negative views of Jewry despite not knowing anything about them. Whilst you’re at it inquire why he (the gubbay) and the Yeshivah Gedolah parted company some 5-6 years ago. Never mind that he had left the Yeshivah back then to join the Yeshivah Gedolah minyan, a story in it’s own right. All well before the “Perils of Manny” hit the airwaves in July 2011.

    And the beat goes on….la di-da di-da!

  • Sunshine says:

    Joe Why don’t you let this man come with you and your kids to pray.

    You can make your rules that peadophiles are welcome.

    I’m happier to keep them out.

    However you comparing a child rapist to Zephaniah saying they should be treated the same is disgraceful but expected

  • Sceptic says:

    The article in today’s age (linked to above) is, to say the least, unfair and biased against Orthodox Judaism. It is the usual simplistic stereotyping of Orthodoxy and, by using examples from overseas, lumps all Jews together. It is lazy reporting to present what ZW and MW say as the ‘gospel’ truth.

    In reality anyone who has davened at Yeshivah Shule or Yeshivah Gedolah on Shabbos during the past 20 years (as I have) would know that ZW has control issues. I am unsure about what he gains by making his departure from Melbourne so public but it certainly isn’t anything to do with pedophilia. I can only think that he and his son feel that continually bashing Yeshivah – despite the many positive steps that have been taken to protect the children – will somehow add to their bank balance. Surely it cannot be of benefit to the victims.

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Why don’t you let this man come with you and your kids to pray.

    I have no opinion as to whether he committed the acts alleged, but I don’t think anyone alleges that he’s violent or that some latent obsession might leap through the air and infect other people.

    It is proper and compassionate to provide mourners with daily minyanim. It isn’t our job to prejudge the verdict of a court or to add to its punishment. He has very recently lost a parent and deserves our sympathy for that, if for nothing else.

  • Zvi Saita says:

    Editor: This is a pseud used by someone banned from commenting on this site.

  • Sunshine says:

    Avi please join Jon I welcoming unconvicted child rapists to your table, shul, what ever.

    I prefer, as an Orthodox Jew, to afford child rapists and those who defend them , the exact same standard of care they afforded their victims

    There is more to come. So you will need all of you to find a better excuse to than “the Waks are evil” to excuse the behaviour of racists who clone themselves in black to cover their crimes.

    Perhaps while you are at it you can invite over drug dealers never convicted as well as murderers never caught and nazis never found guilty

    You and your criminals obviously don’t believe in Hashem.

    How could you yet support criminals without any fear of facing Hashem one day.

  • Zvi Saita says:

    Editor: This is a pseud used by someone banned from commenting on this site.

  • Nachi says:

    Waks knows that his issues within the community predate any SA cases and are totally unrelated. But it doesn’t serve his case for victimization.

    Editor: This portion of the comment is defamatory and has been removed.
    Do not discuss this moderation decision. Further infractions will result in suspension of your account.

    …or in Shule where because of arguments he has left all local Shules.
    So The Age loves to print anti Jewish stories what’s new?
    And please don’t remove this post because the personal issues were brought in by referring to the article on the Age, I’m only respond in to that

  • Zephaniah Waks says:

    It would probably be a mark of respect to be called “evil” by the likes of “Nachi”, except for the negative effects it may have on victims.
    I am prepared to take part in a public debate on morality with Telsner (I can’t bring myself to call him “Rabbi”), or go to Beis Din with him. Can you arrange it “Nachi”? We’ll deal with all the issues, including Yeshivah Centre’s impeccable record, and your claims of my evilness.

  • Brad says:

    A debate? What a great idea. But not if you will be the one who dictates the agenda. Nachi is quite right in that YOUR issues predate Telsner by decades therefore lets make it a worthwhile event.

    I suggest the following be debated as well.

    1.Why does everything happen to you?
    2.Pedophiles are uncannily able to identify vulnerable victims, even at school line ups. That was reiterated on one of Manny’s Facebook posts. Seeing you had 2 children who became victims, what made them more vulnerable than other school children?
    3.Why were so many of your boys given marching orders from your home?
    4. Let’s debate the number of decent shul members you have turned on when they stepped in to assist your sons when they were on the streets?
    5. Let’s debate the fairness of large families paying no school fees whereas shmuks like me who have relatively good incomes can’t afford a home because we do pay those fees?

    Shall I go on?

    You want a debate? Bring it on by all means but you won’t have unfettered control of the agenda.

    Those days of your well known “unfettered control” are over, kapish?

    And the beat goes on – la di-da di-da, la did-da di-da

  • Zephaniah Waks says:

    Yes, Brad & Nachi, bring it on. No holds barred. Telsner, Glick, the board of Yeshivah Centre, they’ll all get to talk & answer questions. Public debate. Neutral moderator. I guarantee it will be very well publicised & attended.

    But in the meantime, stop your anonymous, lying drivel, I’m not going to respond. Will you 2 reveal yourselves publicly at the debate for the great champions of Yeshivah Centre that you are?

  • Brad says:

    I can’t speak for Nachi as I have no clue who he/she is.

    And yes, I will gladly reveal who I am.

    No holds barred for sure which means the following will be introduced.

    Knife assualt (recall Jeddy?), public assault on a married woman (different son), drug peddling (a fair number), stealth of mobile phone stock (recall Dr Meyers?)

    Luverly! Can’t wait!

    And the beat goes on – la di-da di-da, la did-da di-da

  • Zephaniah Waks says:

    Organise it jerk. But you haven’t yet revealed yourself, what are you waiting for?

  • Nachi says:

    Let’s include Obama as well!
    No this is only about you and your claims in the media. You want a public debate but as is your method you resort to smear transference of your issues.
    To start off I didn’t make any claims in the media so I have nothing to answer, you make outrageous statements and you have called for the public debate, on only you!
    So answer to easy questions from me.
    Why couldn’t you go to a Shule on Shabbos, there are 2 Sefardi Shules 50mts from your house, and 5 others within 15min walk? The other Chabad Shules you have already had fights with so there out.
    Did you force the centre to get Kramer out of Melbourne as quickly as possible?
    Let’s debate

  • Zephaniah Waks says:

    Ok. I’ve made a mistake. Engaging with anonymous liars is futile, I’m going back to the policy I’ve had for the last couple of years of not getting involved in anonymous blogs.

    My last word here will be back on the original topic of this post, but I will not be responding in any way to any anonymous poster. This morning I got a call from someone who was approached by another victim of the target of the police investigation which Smukler sent out 2 letters denying. Hopefully this victim will also make a police statement, if he can overcome his fear. This should keep you trolls busy, because as you know, when it all hits the fan, your work is really going to be cut out for you: I have no doubt that you are aware of, along with Smukler, the identity of the alleged perpetrator currently a teacher in Yeshivah College.

  • Reallity Check says:

    What is it that there are some people who contribute to this blog that are pouring scorne on the Waks when all that Manny did was blow the whistle on child sex abuse at the Yeshiva and provide support for the victims? All the elegations against him are pure speculation, aimed at muddying his name.

  • RC – people are upset because two distinct issues have been conflated. ZW would have us believe that his family’s standing in the community has been seriously downgraded purely because of the sex abuse reporting and advocacy. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. I can attest first hand to some of the things mentioned by commenters. You do the maths.

    This conflation and drawing of long-bows connecting communities all over the world has created barriers rather than rallying our community together around the worthy cause of protecting children.

  • Nachi says:

    Why walk away from the public debate that you crave?
    Answer the questions, we will ask more. You went to the media with false claims and ridiculous accusations, your being asked to validate and support our assertions.
    We are proving that peoples opinion of you predates the SA issues, we know it, you know it but deny it, and hopefully some of the wider readers will ask some questions.

    ZW you have never posted anonymously on any blog?

  • Joe in Australia says:

    Zephaniah, I have no idea whom you think to be an abuser at Yeshiva, but if you genuinely believe someone is a risk to children then I’m surprised you don’t reveal his identity.

  • Brad says:

    Nachi posted ZW you have never posted anonymously on any blog?

    Now that’s a difficult question for ZW to answer. Let’s be patient. Newgant will come to the rescue! Newgant, Newgant, where are you when you’re needed? Waks Snr isn’t talking anymore tonight.

  • Sunshine says:

    There’s more to come.

    The argument that doing something wrong excuses another’s rape of your child ?

    Is that what the YC supporters have lowered themselves too?

    There’s more to come

  • issac brott says:

    Firstly the allegation of children ‘being raped’ is very emotive but were is the proof….sexual abuse is whats been alleged and indeed pleaded to but the actual nature of the sexual abuse hasn’t yet been detailed in the public forum.The dialogue is remarkable and certainly off centre.Whilst Wax takes the roll of Don Quixote forever mounted on his white charger ,valiant as his self conviction dictates he perennially misses the sails on the windmill.But to heap a never ending supply of contrived dung on him considering the factual guilty pleas certainly is reflective non to admirably on the contemptuous individuals who are doing the heaping.One would think they have a motive as they sling away with such determination and sense of purpose.From my point of view Manny providing his grist to Fairfax is akin to seeking justice and retribution from the local diocese.At the same time poor myopic Manny keeps missing the ‘sails’…the cowardly powers behind the scenes who were aware what was happening,who didn’t put the safeguards in place when they found out,who paid Kramer off ,who handed him the tickets so he could go to the US and lavish his perversity on another innocent uninformed community,the same people who sit by and allow more dirt to be heaped on Rabbi Groners’ grave no doubt thinking that ‘better him than me’.The same faceless spineless derelicts who were there when Cyprys did what he did and were there when how many more children were violated.The same beasts who allowed us to enrol our kids at the Yeshivah when they knew that the safeguards where not in place and that the scent of perverse accusation hung heavily,The same people who scurried around collecting funds to buy the guilty pleas.The same people who never have had the decency,menschlekait and courage to just disappear,resign and sink into a hole.Poor Rabbi Schmukler…a decent clever professional who is destined to carry on his shoulders the deeds of these iniquitious cowards still.It will only be when they are scourged from the institution and sanitised from the kehilla that Schmukler will succeed as he deserves to.But they will hang in even till their knuckles turn purple because if they dont they know that who follows may just have a sense of justice and rectitude….and possibly realise to make things right the whole truth needs to be told….handfuls of dirt on a dead mans grave wont suffice to bury the truth!

  • Steven says:

    Stupid comments leading to stupid conclusions. As Sunshine said, it’s not about why one kid stabbed another, or why Nachi’s kid eats in McDonalds, or why Brad’s kids doesn’t keep shabbat, or why one kid sold drugs, or why one kid got thrown out of home, etc (for example). They can be investigated separately if they are our business. You can all have a fahrbengen in 25 years and compare notes as to how ALL YOUR kids turned out and examine every minute detail where things went wrong along the way and who was to blame.

    However, this is ALL about the COVER UP of children getting raped and molested in Yeshivah. Had there been no cover up, we would not be having this discussion now, and no finger pointing going on, no blogs, no The Age, Australian and AJN stories etc. It’s simple logic to know that the police should have been called immediately the school, a parent or victim knew something, even if the Rabbi is screaming at you not to call the police with threats of being thrown out of the community. End of story.

  • Nachi says:

    Waks in the media has tried to link his very low approval rating to Manny’s SA cause, what has been convincingly proven is that people’s opinion were formed long before this. And now the “why” is being explained. Waks linked the 2 issues and it’s been posted here, so just setting the record straight. It’s only relevant because Waks made the linkage in The Age.
    More questions to come!

  • issac brott says:

    Gee Steven ….thats so astute of you.You also must have been educated at Yeshivah.Now that you are on top of it…what now?How would you deal with the unfortunate reality that many of the same people who were aware of what was happening,didnt let the parents of the general student population know what was going on,didnt put into place effective measures to ensure it didnt happen again,provided the perpetrator with at least a ticket o/s,thereby actively assisting at least one to flee the country [by default]and repeat the abomination….may still be holding the reins of power at the Y?Do you feel we the public and especially we the parents of children that entrusted our children to the Y in good faith are entitled to the whole story…the whole grimy obscene saga….which to date is still being denied to us and the whole community and society at large?Wax in his blundering clumsy [yet certainly comprehensible and somewhat justifiable]rage and riding the horse of attrition is galloping away obliviously in the wrong direction…the AGE won’t break the case and open pandoras box…they are to busy celebrating another bit of dirt delivered so naively into their hateful eager little paws that they can toss at the jewish kehila as they have been for so many years….who and how Steven?Only when the people who knew and didnt tell,only when the people who paid of ,who had their hands on the tiller at the time ,who knew the law of the land [after all they were intimately acquinted with the dictates of SHEMOS]and who subverted the principles and morals of society are bought to account ,when the truth is exposed ,when the door is opened for all to see can we then refurbish,renovate,cleanse and sanitise and let the rejuvenating gust of honesty and integrity provide a new beginning.

  • Steven says:

    It’s not about you or me or Zepaniah or his moving or not moving, or his popularity ranking. It’s about the cover up of rape in Yeshivah. If don’t like him he doesn’t care, I don’t care and you probably don’t care either.

  • Nachi says:

    He doesn’t care?
    Wants a Human Rights hearing, until they laughed at him. Then tried VCAT, they laughed, the Police ignored him, Vic Commission, filmed himself outside Shul, posts about old friends not talking to him, headlines himself as the victim being attacked, the big bleat in The Age, creating a story of being shunned.
    Ye your right Waks doesn’t care, it’s all about the victims, it’s not about him at all, the right!

  • Nachi says:

    This is a content free comment that violates Galus policy. Further infringements will result in suspension of your account.

  • Sunshine says:

    Perhaps Nachi if your child is raped you can choose to do nothing.

    You can choose not to say, not to report, not to be upset when your ” deeply pious religious” friends side with the rapist over you.

    You can choose abuse over loving your children so they can marry someone just like you.

    I often wonder how religious people truly are when they show no fear over being judged by G-d. They cloak themselves in black but really have I belief

    Try as I might it can’t find “thy shalt protect a child rapist and shun the victim” anywhere in the torah.

  • Brad says:

    Trying to derail the conversation Sunshine?

    The issue is not about the abuse, other than the abuse Waks snr is thrusting upon the Yeshiva, Rabbi Smukler and anyone else with whom he does not see eye to eye.

    Stick to the topic on hand if you are able to do so.

    This was all brought on by Daddy Waks who wanted a no-holds barred debate, then got cold feet when he was told he would not dictate the agenda.

    The current thread component is a direct result of Waks Snr’s profiling himself in the anti-semitic Age newspaper as if everyone is picking on him for no reason at all other than for his loving and undying support of his abused son Manny. But everyone knows that’s a lie. No one has an issue with Manny or any other alleged victim seeking justice. (The way he’s going about it though will ruin his Tzedek party, the Tzedek crew are waking up finally to his destructive mode of conduct.) Both Manny and ZW posting continuous negative comments about the Yeshiva nay, make that against the Yeshiva community simply goes beyond the pale. Waks Snr posted yesterday there is a current teacher who is being investigated but in typical cowardly fashion won’t name him. Waks denies Smuklers assurances which have been provided by the police. He calls Smukler a liar. Taking this plus the many years of acrimonious vitriol, his incessant attempts to lay police charges against anyone with whom he doesn’t see eye to eye with, plus his track record in respect to his son(s), is it any great wonder everyone shuns him? And of course hypocritically, he still has the gall to keep one child at the unsafe pedophile infested YBR. He’s outsmarted himself, he’s brought it all upon himself. He has no friends. Even his last friend dumped him when Waks admitted he had been secretly taping not only their phone conversations but everyone who called him. I was shocked when I heard that yesterday. Just when I thought Waks could do no further damage to himself, this phone recording issue came up. But these are not the things he discloses to the press. His song is “they’re picking on me ’cause I care for my son Manny and I always stick up for him. I’m the best dad in the world. I’m innocent of everything. I deserve the Father of the Year Award, every year”.
    So Steven & Sunshine, penny dropping bubalehs? Follow the advice weregiven by another poster on a different site i.e. please do something useful.

    Help Waks pack!

    And the beat goes on, la di-da di-da, la did-da di-da

  • Steven says:

    Brad says “The issue is not about the abuse, other than the abuse Waks snr is thrusting upon the Yeshiva, Rabbi Smukler and anyone else with whom he does not see eye to eye.”

    Not about the abuse? Oh I am so sorry, I thought I read at the top of the page the following, but perhaps bashing ZW is more important to you:-

    Important Information Regarding Abuse Allegations
    October 11, 2013 – 11:29

    By Anonymous:

    Editor’s note: This piece has been written by a respected member of the community who wishes to remain anonymous due to the acrimonious nature of the debate.

    As a concerned Yeshivah-Beth Rivkah parent I called Moorabbin Police station this morning (phone number: 9556 6565) and spoke to the Senior Constable in charge. I stated that as a very worried parent I wanted to know that my children were not at risk.

    The Senior Constable said that there is no investigation into any current Yeshivah-Beth Rivkah College staff member, nor any threat to children through the Yeshivah Centre.

    I stated that I had read this week’s Jewish News article and a online blog mentioned 11 known perpetrators at the Yeshivah Centre. He stated that again if children were at risk the school would be informed.

    He also stated that anyone can make online accusations, often anonymously or through an organisation’s website or facebook. The police do not respond to newspaper articles or online accusations, if children are at risk they take immediate action to ensure their safety.

    The Senior Constable said parents should not trust what they read in newspapers, online blogs, third party organizations or even school statements. They should call the police themselves to gain confidence in their children’s safety.

    The Senior Constable’s number is 9556 6565. Call for yourself to gain comfort that your children are safe.

  • Sunshine says:

    I did. I removed my children after receiving nothing on paper about the so called “policies and procedures” from YC.

    Don’t kid yourself Brad there’s more to come

  • Sunshine says:

    Hmmmm apologies for responding again but I was under the impression that MW kids were in a public school.

    The claim he has a daughter there is weird considering he has no daughter
    Brad …..

  • Sunshine says:

    Finally…. (Sorry editor) For you Brad the issue is not the abuse. And that is exactly why YC is not the place to be .

    Disgraceful but expected

  • Brad says:

    Clearly your head is where the Sun-don’t-shine, Sunshine.

    Who talking about Manny taking his kids out? Although strangely he did have 2 of his kids there a few years back, but again, he’s not the focus of the discussion.

    The focus of the post(s) is Waks snr. Doh!

    OK, if “snr” throws you somewhat try Zephania? That help?

    And as far as removing your kids, good for you.It must have coincided when the was an upward spike in the YBR schools IQ results. Never could figure out why, but thanks to you the riddle has now been solved.

  • Reallity Check says:

    I have never witnessed members of our community being so nasty to each other, and over an issue that should repusle everyone. How would those contributors who have attacked Manny and his father feel if their child was sexually abused? Who knew nothing of the crimes committed against his son inside his own community and not have been able to protect him like most parents instinctively do. Shame on you all

  • Brad, please refrain from any further rude or nasty comments. Failure to comply will result in suspension of your account.

    Do not discuss this instruction in thread.

  • Brad says:

    Oh, hi Steven.

    The topic evolved about the false story published last Friday in The Age.

    You want to divert the topic? Fine, go ahead divert.

    I’ve made my point and it’s well understood.

    1. Manny deserves justice but in a just way. No argument there.

    2. Zephania is getting his long overdue just deserves. The community he has lived amongst, argued with, and and reviled for decades, believes he’s getting what’s coming to him.
    No argument there.

    Shalom al Yisrael.

    And the beat goes on, la di-da di-da, la did-da di-da

  • Sunshine says:

    Thanks Editor

    Me thinks Brad doth protest too much.

    Brad …………. Child rape is was and always will be the issue.

    Not everyone will get on ever. I’ve been spat and sworn at by the “high iq” students you refer to. By all means tell me how that is ok for making a choice to protect my children.

    Abuse is always the issue. Perhaps if we took your view we’d find enough drug addicts, dealers, abusive parents amongst the Jews killed in Nazi Germany for you to defend Hitler.

    If one day it’s your child or grandchild at least they have somewhere to get help.

    There’s more to come Brad

  • Sunshine says:

    http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/11/haredi-yeshiva-teacher-busted-for-alleged-child-rape-234.html

    Perhaps Brad before congratulating the people that helped these young boys we should , as you have, find skeletons in their and their families closets then use the as the excuse to defend the rapist?

    How is your closet looking?

  • Brad says:

    Editor: This truly revolting comment has been deleted and it’s writer has been suspended from this site.

  • Nachi says:

    I refer to EN Oct 14, 8:15.
    Just get Rabbi Smukler to answer…
    How can you make anonymous demands to have questions answered.
    Waks if you run away from answering anonymous questions how can you demand it from others? A bit hypocritical?
    More questions to come! Feel free to ask questions and refute the claim that Waks is being forced out because Manny raised issues. Continue the great debate. Transparency.

  • WasThere says:

    Editor: Do not speculate about posters’ identities. Any impersonation is dealt with and the offending commenter is banned from the site permanently. Do not discuss comment moderation in thread. Email the editor with any concerns.

  • WasThere says:

    In other news….
    Cyprys was to be sentenced this week but there has been a delay…..
    Most likely reason(though just a guess) is that the Judge is busy with another case that went longer then expected….

  • Sunshine says:

    http://www.tzedek.org.au/child-rape-assembly-line/

    This is why we can never listen to the defenders of abusers. The excuse makers and the victim blamers.

    Open your eyes.

  • Reallity Check says:

    The Victorian Government Enquiry into child sex abuse has recommended that protectors of the abusers be charged and justifiably so.

  • Steven says:

    This is my last comment on this. I urge everyone to read the link Sunshine posted, especially the part where the rapist with the long white beard, caught in the mikva by a repairman, is offended because he was interrupted while raping an eight year old boy and throws a sponge in his face. No shame or embarassment means no morality means no limits to what he could do.

  • TheSadducee says:

    He should have dragged that old deviant out by his beard and thrown him to ground in the street – that would have brought shame on him.

  • Sunshine says:

    It is so sad. So desperately sad and yet people defend these men.

    Royal commission has indeed reccomended that institutions who protected molesters be charged.

    Watching the victims on TV along with Manny Waks we can only be proud of the men and women that broke the silence despite the hell they have been put through

  • Haari says:

    The article that Sunshine linked to attempts to politicize sexual abuse and pedophilia by linking these issues to the “right wing” and to the supposed voting patterns of orthodox jews etc. besides bing totally irrelevant, politicizing this issue and turning this into a “right vs left” or “orthodox vs secular” isn’t constructive or helpful in anyway. Interestingly, I have spent the past few years living amongst orthodox jews in brooklyn and observed that the communities there as a whole traditionally embraced democratic candidates for both the local council and new york state elections. Many also voted for Obama in the federal elections. Are we going to link such “frightening” voting tendencies to pedophilia and sexual abuse also?

  • issac brott says:

    Brad…your concerns for the victims,your compassion ,your need for transparency and deep seated apparent horror at the abominations that have taken place seem to somewhat somewhat elevate you to the status of heartless and soul less!Zephaniah Wax is a father….are you telling the world that if you were a father ,a contributor of 17 souls to the Jewish community who strove and strides to bring up his children in a traditional manner….much to his credit and to the vast undeniable credit and benefit of the jewish community you would not be equally upset,distraught,betrayed and anguished when you find out that people you knew,respected and sat in shul with are moving heaven and earth by whatever brutal ,sometimes physical,surreptitious ,secret,conspiratorial and clandestine means to hide and twist history,avoid responsibility and culpability and even worse as a consequence abberate and corrupt unashamedly the values and principals of the ethos that is so precious to the community….jewish and gentile.Not only has Wax and other children been violated but the machers don’t face the community with their palms facing upwards in apologetic submission and their faces turned away into the shadows in guilt and shame for having compromised monstrously a whole community…a community that seems now to have been seized by the forces of blackness rather than the forces and actions indicative of regret,contrition and tsuvah.

  • Brad says:

    Issac

    As I wasn’t banned rather I was suspended, I’m unsure if this post will pass muster. But if you are reading this I guess I’m re-instated?

    Your flowery post indicates you simply don’t read (carefully) whats put in front of you.

    For the “enth” time, no one is upset with Manny for seeking legal redress. That is his unfettered right. It’s the way he’s going about it but that’s not the issue under discussion. Of course Tzephania couldn’t be happy about his sons predicament. No parent could or would be, even if they were contributing factors to the victims vulnerability in the first instance. The posts above related specifically to Zephanias posturing that he is being shunned at the Yeshiva solely because of of his ‘defense” of Manny. That is patently false as anyone/everyone who has attended many years as a mitpallel at the Yeshiva can attest to. Not as a parent of the school, but as a regular shul attendee, day in day out. Those who don’t, can only rely on newspaper reports and general gossip which are out of touch with the realty of the ins & outs of the community, more so of Orthodox community.

    So, for the last time, everyone feels and felt sorry for Manny. Everyone felt sorry for Manny and his siblings years before anyone was ever aware Manny had been sexually abused. Perhaps you should focus your expertise in that direction and query, why did the community feel so sorry the the Waks boys virtually 20 years ago? The community was unaware of the current problems on hand.

    Think you could focus on that moot point?

  • Nachi says:

    Issac, long on vitriol, accusations, fabrications, short on facts, truth or evidence. Emotive language without a word of corroboration.
    Did you hear Avrohom Yemini speak about his father at a Mizrachi community shiur recently. His defence wasn’t as effusive or colourful as you but 100% accurate.
    Why would Waks covertly tape all his conversations, even with his friends? Do the words “surreptitious secret conspiratorial clandestine abberate & corrupt” come to mind?

  • WasThere says:

    @Brad….

    You said it’s not what Manny is doing but how he’s going about it that people are not happy with….
    In your opinion how should he go about it??….What should he do different which would make people happy??…

  • Joe in Australia says:

    I saw a criticism of Manny on Facebook a week or so ago. Manny’s response, if I interpreted it correctly, was to threaten the critic with legal action for defamation.

    With that in mind, I have no criticism to make.

  • Sunshine says:

    Today more victims of abuse

    At least we know now those who covered and protected abusers will probably be prosecuted as the criminals they are.

    Watching the excuses of the Church I wonder if the are related to Brad

  • issac brott says:

    No you are only partially correct…..the abusers who committed the offence in the first instance will /may be prosecuted but only as a sacrifice by a few so the many can escape anmd continue to leech and abuse the congregations thay have seized…both the abusers and those who were neglectful in theit responsibilities who allowed the abuse by default ,by lack of vigilance,by neglect and protection of their comfortable nests will escape the justice occassionally meted out on earth…their time will come but in a different world….or at least thats the comfort we must resign ourselves to rest upon.

  • Sunshine says:

    I wish Isaac that you were wrong , but I know you are not

  • issac brott says:

    Keep the focus on the devils who are at the centre of this iniquitous endless nightmare….It is only when good people tire do the rat bags who are positively surviving by whatever means possible prevail.
    Not every congregant ,donor,parent has a communal obligation to stand up,Mann the battlements and do battle….the reality is that many are not equipped as humans to engage the iniquitous forces that now have their hands around the throat of the Yeshiva….but those who cant then register your disgust with your feet….walk away from them,stop the donations so the black and white franchise feels it in the purse….that will mobilise the silent supine mass to rise up soon enough.Our beloved Yeshivah has been violated not only by self interest,moral and ethical abuse but also by sheer cowardice and complicity by silence.Look at the courage and focus of Waller faced with a similar situation….a courageous enlightened ,vocal,. statement of unequivocal intent and determination to thoroughly investigate the past,dig as deep and as long as possible to investigate and determine the veracity of the abuse alleged so many many years ago and expose the truth with a view to redress the past best as is possible to redress what is possibly not capable of being redressed.Nevertheless he has sought to make it clear to all and sundry that the Jewish way ,the unchallengeable road to redemption is thorough investigation…exposure…recognition….contrition and thshuvah by whatever means possible and available .This is the only road that is available .There is no compromise ,no shortcuts nor bargains.You who stand on the road with no shame ,no conscience and no compassion blocking what needs to be done to bring the sins of the past to light in order for the process of cleansing to begin ….remember what are the words of ultimate comfort,stern warning and succinct focused guidance that appears above the repository of the holy torah ‘KNOW BEFORE WHOM YOU STAND’

  • Sunshine says:

    Another yeshiva teacher charged this morning.

    Apparently there was “no investigation” Brad and brads friends.

    Well done to Tzedek again

  • issac brott says:

    When will the machers march in?….when will the parents get their kids out of harm way?When will the congregants revolt ?Where are the silent men from New York who have the power?Are the franchisees busy dreaming of more donations and loot so they are to busy?I look at the rooftops of Caulfield and you dont see individuals screaming in pain and outrage!Obviously the feathered nests are to warm to leave…..even if our cause is our children [much to our shame and even elitest views of our own community] !The rabbonim are talking to the press…Boys ,try opening a dialogue with G-d….you may get some useful guidance but you will first proberly receive a slap across the punim….Maybe it is the case that we are all waiting for someone else to initiate the outrage and disgust?The parents still blindly trust?The board of deputies can’t see past their shnozzles?The congregants are to used to cheap seats and to comfortable in the view of their own holiness?The lawyers too self impressed with their cutout pictures on their shelves?Manny waiting for his star role at the royal commission and the chevra of associates of the clandestine cabal of silence at the Yeshivah to busy serving their roles as lapdogs paying fealty to the by now ‘tziterring’ ‘imperpetuity’ executive by intimidating,maligning and sometimes even thuggery….yes its happening ?Remember the rats already have a escape trail set out and somewhat well worn,to Israel….so it wont take long till the urge of zionism [a cover] takes hold and they flee .They just need a push…..join the push…..let it come to shove….the quiker the better….we dont need the culprits alligned in a dock in Melbourne ….just to know they are gone…the administration sanitised of their odious cohorts and the children are certainly safe and the Rebbes lubavitch,not their twisted abberated sub quality abberrated interpretation ,is again in the spectre and on the pedestal it should be.
    A step at a time…first the purge then the exposure and punishment….but I shouldnt have said that ….this is what is at the nub of their determination to hang on fore as their knuckles turn purple,their fingernails break and the last of their strenght faulters they remind themselves the consequences of letting go or optimisticallt being compelled to let go….’TRUTH.’…something we dont see often these days…

  • issac brott says:

    Hey Sunshine….where did you find the info about the new charges?Regards

  • Sunshine says:

    Posted by http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-15/jewish-leader-charged-over-child-sex-offences/5094890

    15 November 2013
    Daniel Oakes

    A former leader at a Melbourne Jewish youth organisation has been charged with child sex offences.

    Aaron Kestecher, also known as Ezzy, faced Melbourne Magistrates Court this morning over allegations he abused two boys, including one who was under his care.

    Kestecher, 28, is believed to have been a leader of the Chabad Youth group and worked as a substitute teacher at Yeshivah College in East St Kilda.

    The offences, including sexual penetration of a child under 16 and other indecent acts, are alleged to have taken place between June 2009 and March 2010.

    It has been alleged that the incidents took place at one address in East St Kilda, and at another undisclosed location.

    The committal mention hearing was adjourned until December 2 to allow the investigating police officer to take more statements.

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